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Steam Dreams 2013 & 2014 Archive

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by free2grice, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Is there a market for running a double trip in a day, probably from London? I'm thinking something like 1 - 1.5hrs out, a couple of hours in a destination then the same back; then repeat in the afternoon?

    That way your rolling stock charges (loco hire / carriage hire) are basically the same as an all day trip, but you get two sets of passengers who might well pay perhaps 2/3 to 3/4 of what they would pay for an all day trip? The time demands on the support crew should also be no worse than an all day trip.

    Obviously a lot of logistics to cover, such as turning at each end, finding paths, finding suitable destination etc. But the reason I ask is that for, say, the family market; or for foreign tourists in e.g. London, a 15 hour marathon with early start and late finish is simply too long. Whereas many such people may well be up for a gentle 4 - 5 hour day out with a pleasant stop in the middle. It may also make, say, an 8 coach load with e.g. class 4 tank viable, which obviates turning. (For example - 8 coaches, say one is a support coach. Gives 14 coaches for passengers available in the day, which is better than a regular trip with, say, 10 coaches filled once).

    Tom
     
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  2. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Oh yes Tom, very good idea.

    35028 Waterloo to Salisbury.

    34046 Salisbury to Waterloo.

    34046 gets turns and serviced.

    34046 Waterloo to Salisbury via Southampton.

    35028 Salisbury to Waterloo via Southampton.

    London punters get a long day at Salisbury if they want one. Or a short day.

    Salisbury punters get a bit of time in London. So could Southampton punters with a short normal service train journey to pick up their first up working of the day.

    And a handful of gricers have big smiles on their faces all day if decent times can be sorted on the main line route for all four trips.

    :) :) :) :) :)
     
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Bryan

    Spot on with that idea. Anything to Salisbury works well via any sensible route and if you include Soton then people could opt for a Solent boat trip tour as well.

    If we are moving towards simple itineraries as Tom also implies would be more popular, then this idea is really a 'no brainer'. The only issue for premier dining is that if you flash down to Salisbury in 90 minutes, say, then time is tight for feeding. But the idea of a downward run with a light mid morning snack (because you have left London at a sensible time) and then one decent meal on the return seems a good formula....Wait a minute UKRT has already worked that one out!
     
  4. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Yes, the time for the evening meal would be on the way back.

    Say, 30 minutes Salisbury to a Soton water stop of 20 minutes. 6 mins onto a stop at Southampton Central, 3 minutes there, then 84 minutes to Waterloo. 2 hrs and 20 minutes should be long enough to shove enough food and drink down the diners to keep then happy? Peasant class would have to be the last coach up from Soton to replicate the old Saturday night Club train atmosphere.

    OK. When I win a little bit more than my fairly regular £25 on the Lottery I'll help fund such a day.

    Until then it will just be a Steam Dream.

    He said getting back on topic....................
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Actually, I wonder if that might work better the other way round, if you are thinking of mix and match the passengers.

    For example:

    Dep Salisbury 0830, arrive London say 1000 - 1030.
    Depart London say 1130, arrive Salisbury 1300.

    Depart Salisbury say 1500 arrive London 1630
    Depart London say 1730 arrive Salisbury say 1900.

    OK, the turnaround times are probably a bit optimistic and you get a bit tangled up in London rush hour (would be OK at weekends). But that way the Salisbury crowd get a worthwhile day out in London, and the London crowd get a leisurely lunch in Salisbury.

    Not that I am biased of course! But there are plenty of worthwhile destinations within about 90 minutes of London (Canterbury, Winchester, Oxford etc). York might be another good starting point for something similar.

    Tom
     
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  6. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Steam Dreams are doing 2 trips to Canterbury on the 21st of this month.
    The options are

    London - Canterbury and return not getting off 1st and 2nd trips.
    London - Canterbury and return getting off 1st trip and returning on 2nd train. Note : long layover in Canterbury
    Canterbury - London and return, on return of the 1st and return on 2nd
     
  7. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    Rather like VT do with The Shakespeare Express every Sunday during the summer. They offer 4 alternatives: 2 short Brum-Stratford and straight back, 1 long day in Stratford from Brum, and one afternoon blast from Stratford to Brum which is perfect for a leisurely Sunday lunch. They do it with one loco and run tender first on the outward journey. Have to say that I like the idea of regular Sunday trips to Salisbury, and I think one might get a path down through Surbiton most Sundays without having to leave too early.

    Once the new Bicester chord is in place, and there's double track through Islip, there's the possibility of London-Oxford trains without needing to turn the loco. Out via HiWy, back via Reading, or vice versa. There'd be time to do that twice in a day, though turning the loco in London might take a little while. Change at Princes Risborough for Chinnor, Didcot for the GWS, and Cholsey for Wallingford, then back home on the evening run!
     
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  8. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, as all I'm saying is that there is still a market out there 'in the sticks' for those able or willing to grab it, providing healthy competition amongst providers, which will in turn ensure everyone runs what they can effectively control within a finite market. However, living nowhere near London, I'd still be waiting to experience a steam trip if I judged everything solely on the presence of a white table cloth and the possible appearance of a cup of tea on one or both legs of a journey.
     
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  9. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Some of that is definitely the case. The support crews seemed to be prepared to work longer days than others. Tornado also has good route availabilty so was useful for the crosss London trips.

    As an example 60163 could manage London Paddington to Shrewsbury via Bristol Parkway and Welsh Marches with one water stop. It is not possible apparently, for another loco to do the whole trip,with reasonable start and finish times in one day.

    Better paths were also possible on certain routes since could go further before it required a water stop. E.g King Cross to York with 1 water stop each way at Grantham when there was a path available on a Saturday. Excluding Bittern with a second tender, all other locos require 2 water stops.
     
  10. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Now that seems a very fine idea. Who should we be selling it to?
     
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  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's exactly what I had in mind.

    I've never been on a rail tour in this country, but regardless of traction, one of the things that puts me off is the length of some trips, especially if you factor in an additional journey (probably by rail) to get to a suitable starting point. I'd be quite up for a trip of 5 or 6 hours with a break in the middle; much less so for one of 12+ hours. I do wonder who such trips are actually pitched at? Certainly not especially family-friendly, nor I suspect massively tourist-friendly.

    I have done some rail tours in NZ and Australia (Taieri Gorge, Christchurch - Greymouth etc) and they seemed to have much more friendly start and end times while still feeling like you had a good day out. I appreciate that the rail networks there are much less crowded, making patching easier.

    Also, thinking commercially, I'm slightly surprised no-one runs a tour to connect with the cruise liners docking at Southampton, as there you have a captive market of passengers at a loose end for the day looking for something to do if you could set up the journey right. Even something really simple like "See Bath by steam train" could be spun out to a day via "the beautiful Wylye valley" ...

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
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  12. Drysdale

    Drysdale Guest

    Tourists/tour companies. How about for the American tourist market,' see Oxford, city of Dreaming Spires by a genuine British steam train'?
     
  13. malc

    malc Part of the furniture

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    Oxford is a difficult destination for railtours as it has a very frequent service and only two platforms. They don't lik it when a railtour arrives or departs and needs time to allow several hundred passengers to get on or off.

    However, if you could overcome that obstacle, you could avoid the problem of turning in London by running from Reading via Ascot, Clapham Junction, Kensington Olympia, Ealing Broadway, West Ruislip and back to High Wycombe (there are probably other similar routes, but that provides good connections with other servers and the underground network).
     
  14. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I was at a training course yesterday where the lecturer illustrated a practical issue by mentioning that the American Cruise Liners are now using Holyhead and around 10 coach loads of American tourists are regularly deposited in Caernarfon. This seems like another opportunity for steam railtours to tap such markets but probably has the same issue as any non-London starts - where does the stock and loco have to come from? Would there be an opportunity for a "long" day from say Crewe to Holyhead, with a shorter trip for the US guests from Holyhead to Llandudno and back?

    I must say I am mystified as to the continued appeal of the very long days. The main market seems to be people with a liking for steam and the premier experience, but not dedicated enthusiasts as such, who you would expect to be somewhat resistant to boarding at 6:00am and getting back after 11pm!

    I have gathered some support crews have also started to query the length of day, which is probably a major factor in the increased diesel mileage. I seem also to recall that a couple of years back, WCRC said very clearly extremely long steam sections would be the exception for them, not the rule.

    Certainly, having to co-ordinate part steam and part diesel is no easier for the TOC - nor cheaper.

    Steven
     
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  15. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Tom

    One of the things that governs the length of trips is the time required to serve the evening meal on the return, so that means about 3 hours to the first drop off. Premier dining appears to sell quicker than the other classes.

    When Steam Dreams started 1999 I believe the plan ( from interviews with Marcus in Steam Railway) was to run regular services to Canterbury and Salisbury. They found that the typical customer went on 1 or 2 trips a year, and did not want to return to the same desination every year or every other year, so new desintations were required, and the business evolved into what we have today.

    Paul
     
  16. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Steven

    I agreed and think one the reason is that the people are after new destinations, having been to all the ones that are nearer.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  17. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Well some companies manage to run long days and fill the trains. This coming Saturday being an example.
    But you will notice the many pickup points.

    CONFIRMED TIMINGS OUTWARD RETURN
    HEREFORD
    06:00 23:24
    LEDBURY
    06:19 22:52
    GREAT MALVERN
    06:33 22:36
    WORCESTER FOREGATE ST
    06:46 22:23
    DROITWICH SPA
    06:59 22:08
    KIDDERMINSTER
    07:17 21:53
    STOURBRIDGE JUNCTION
    07:30 21:40
    ROWLEY REGIS
    07:43 21:26
    BIRMINGHAM INTERNATIONAL
    08:23 20:53
    COVENTRY
    08:40 20:40
    RUGBY
    09:03 20:25
    NORTHAMPTON
    09:31 19:59
    MILTON KEYNES
    09:52 19:39

    OUR DESTINATION(S) ARRIVE DEPART
    BOURNEMOUTH
    13:28 16:53
    WEYMOUTH
    14:24 15:53
     
  18. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Just enough time to get a fish and chip lunch at Weymouth. Out of the station and head diagonally right to the main road that leads to the seafront and there is a chippy just on the right of that road a little way down and before the sea front. Well, it wouldn't be after the sea front would it. Unless you were Japanese and wanted raw fish.

    Anyway. Just finished almost five days of hard work typing up my field notes and sorting/indexing my photos from my recent Owl trip to Scotland.

    So I'm going to put my feet up and have a Steam Dream.

    Or maybe a Steamy Dream. Not sure which!
     
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  19. Drysdale

    Drysdale Guest

    Was following a van the other day which was sign written thus on the rear doors:

    BSW guaranteed warmth.

    Anything to do with you?
     
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  20. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    One trip which I believe is aimed at families is the RTC Weymouth Seaside Express see http://www.railwaytouring.net/uk-day-trips/weymouth-seaside-express This has no dining ,but has a long layover 5.5 hours in Weymouth partly because the loco has to go to Yeovil to turn.
     

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