Steaming back into Ryde?

I don't see the closure of Island Line being necessary but it would need rationalisation - doing away with the need for double track, perhaps through a loop at or near Brading, would allow Smallbrook to close and give the IWSR it's own line to and platforms at St John's in much the same way as the Spa Valley at Eridge. It's the only scenario that makes any economic sense to me.

Chris

 

I think that is very much the current thinking.

 

If the cross-platform interchange at Smallbrook continues to exist all that an extension to Ryde St John's Road will achieve for the IWSR is additional cost.

 

How far is Smallbrook to Ryde St Johns? Seems to me that on the current timetable, you can maintain an hourly service with one train, but even that requires fairly smart work at each terminus in order to leave time to take water at Havenstreet and allow a little contingency time. Even adding, say, an extra mile each way (say 3 - 4 minutes extra running time in each direction) would push you to needing either a regular two train service, or relax the service frequency to about 75min - neither of which is ideal.

Tom

 

It's about a mile from Smallbrook to St John's. The current service frequency and timetable does not need the locomotive to be pushed hard, if the same frequency were to be delivered with increased mileage we would have to pick the pace up quite a bit. Not necessarily a good thing; in the very early days of the Smallbrook extension a more frequent service was provided (45 mins?), it didn't last long!

 

Indeed. The Ventnor West push-pull set is an example of what the Southern could achieve by altering, with flair, already elderly equipment to hand. Third class is stylish, almost sumptuous. As for first class I recall someone who held a first class season ticket from Guildford to Waterloo observing how much better it was than his daily transport! Fit for a Queen as, in fact, it has been. The only thing not streets ahead of a "Pacer" is the ride quality, which is rather similar.

More seriously, whatever is to be found on Ryde-Shanklin in the future has to be better than the local buses which, at the moment, are brand or nearly new and well maintained with comfortable seating. Sending over replacement rolling stock which is not of an equivalent standard would be mistaken.

Paul H.

 

I've no idea of how much Rhyde -Shanklin loses but I do know that big railway finances are vastly different to small railway finances. The original NYMR scheme to get into Whitby was costed at c£700K. Once it became a Network Rail project, albeit managed by the NYMR, the project cost almost trebled for what was essentially the same scheme.

 

Pacers would be the cheapest option by far, and looks & feels like a bus too

 

Consultant costs?

 

Whilst it would be everyones dream to see a terrier, or Calbourne on Ryde pier, it wil never happen, the cost would bankcrupt the IOWSR, The county council will not have the funds for any community rail service, the Island line only has servived because the profit making parts of SWT offset the loss, so sorry to burst any balloons, if SWT decide they dont want it, and the government wont pick up the tab, the only viable option is closure,
If somehow a community rail project took over the line, the best option would be for the track and signalling to be passed over to the IOWSR, they have the expertise, and the equipment to maintain the PW, if the council could give them the funds to do it, then a separate company could run the line, and provide stock etc, of course, though Shanklin would have to be rebuilt with a run round for the high season sunday specials between ryde St Johns and Shanklin

 

Your first paragraph is fine. However you spoil it all with the second! "Islander" has really said it all before.

The IOWSR did not achieve 100% ownership of land, track and stock by being excessively starry eyed. Running to Shanklin is not quite as high in the "wouldn't it be nice" league of woolly romanticism as going back to the Pier Head but it is not far off.

P

 

paul hitch, What effect would closure of the the ryde to shanklin line have on the IOWSR? for instance, there would be no need to run beyond Havenstreet, as Smallbrook has no other public access and you dought the business case for running beyond it, so why not in that case take up the track and revert to how it was before just a 5 mile railway ?

to me having the PW dept look after the track of both lines makes sence, as long as funding is provided to allow it without effecting the steam railway's finances. i can see an opertunity if tourism picks up to gain additional income for the steam railway not by runing regular specials, but a very limited once or twice a year, using excisting iowsr stock, after all, if pacers were transfered to the island, then the clearences would have to be changed anyway.

 

Slightly off topic but it is christmas so indulge me! There is nowhere that illustrates the consequences of short term political self interest better than the Isle of Wight today. Back in the sixties it was not Beeching who was the great ogre - it was Ernest Marples. All Beeching did was respond to his simple 4 word mandate "Make the Railways Pay". What Marples did however was ensure that the railways once gone could never come back - exactly as his road contruction company Marples Ridgeway wanted. THe railways could never "Pay" in the conventional profit and loss account sense, but on the Island today, a transport system that still ran to the centre of Newport and on to Cowes, and down to Ventnor from Shanklin would benefit island life enormously, but thanks to Marples' edict to the Minsitry of Transport, and the Minstry of Transport's instructions to the British Railways Property Board, trackbeds were to be sold as quicky as possible to anyone that wanted it - even just a few yards here and there, but with the result that the Island can never have a railway system that is actually of significant usefulness. The island's lines today could have provided a useful artery using cascaded mainland DMU stock and there is a real chance that heritage and conventional rail could have coexisted, not only providing a unique tourist opportunity but providing the very means to ensure the tourists could move round the island in comfort and with more speed than today. Of course an intact Island rail system could not have paid in the conventional sense, but factor in the hundreds of jobs created directly, the many hundreds more jobs created indirectly, and then crucially the journey minutes reduced round the island from the removal of car traffic delays especially round Newport but now commonplace everywhere and there we would have a symbiotic social railway system that would indeed "pay". The rump line from Ryde to SHanklin is caught forever in a doomed neverworld of being hopeless uneconomic with no source of capital funding for extension but too much cowardice to be abandoned, and the IOWSR doomed to approach Newport but only gaze at it from a distance when it reaches the Ryde Road - unable to make a strategically useful connection to any kind of transport hub .
This scenario exists all over the country today, but the Isle of Wight was a self contained network that serves as an illustration of just what Marples and the MoT did and just what we could have done today with one simple act of foresight - leave all trackbeds intact!

 

If 150s and 158s could pass the tunnel, then so could redundant 3rd rail stock from the mainland. Diesel traction must be a backward step.

 

It was even worse than that not only were the trackbeds sold off but they were used for various pipelines to be laid. From Wootton towards Newport a pipe has been laid in the trackbed, the IOWSR did a feasibility study a number years ago about the possibilities of reopening to Newport, the cost was approaching £5 million! due to things like the pipeline.

One of the council engineers in part responsible for the infamous Coppins Bridge roundabout in Newport for which Newport station was bulldozed is now an IOWSR Director and Fireman. He is gently reminded of Coppins Bridge every now and again

 

Right!
Number 1.

"Islander" has expressed in this thread and I have heard it elsewhere in IOWSR circles, some irritation about "bright" ideas being put forward periodically by people who have little idea of what is involved. The civil engineering of railways in the Isle of Wight was and is highly restrictive. You are involving people with whom it seems you have not consulted as to whether they want to get involved. Putting a loop in at Shanklin for services which are described as "very limited once or twice a year" hardly seems sensible economics.

Number 2.

Smallbrook is needed as a means whereby people visiting from the mainland other than in private cars or in motor coaches can access the IOWSR conveniently. Should the electric line close then an extension of the IOWSR to St. Johns would bring the cross-Solent ferries to within a long walk or a short bus ride. "Islander" has already dealt with the operating implications. although, IMHO, there would be certain advantages in having a terminal in a town as opposed to a rural location with no pedestrian or road vehicle access. It would increase the demand placed on historic equipment and those who use and maintain it.

Number 3.

In making proposals which would put an extra strain on those who actually do the work please spare a thought that these are real people and not shadowy occupants of "wouldn't it be nice land".

PH

 

The main problem with the 3rd rail is the need to replace the sub stations. One has already been taken out of use due to lack of spares. Providing new sub stations would be on the expensive side.

The main reason that the Shanklin to Ventnor section closed was that they were not able to afford the extra sub station that would be needed to power that section. Ventnor's Hotel bookings plummeted after closure, soo short sighted.

 

That is going to be the deciding factor, the 1938 stock cant go on for ever, and the infrastructure is becoming due for replacement, as the franchise includes the the track ,stations as well as operating the service , its no wonder SWT would wish to off load it,if they can, who would if running a business want to increase the loss they make even greater?
my theory is that once there is a presence with the steam railway in Ryde, the line will have to change because of it, if the line to shanklin is still open, and using non tube sized stock, and there is a physical conection, then i'm sorry but you will get a ground swell of requests to do something, special ,

 

This "ogre" stuff might be very consoling for those looking for such a creature but it is a myth, at least as far as the IOW is concerned. In some ways the decline can be traced back to the moment in the mid nineteen-twenties when the Southern Railway let the powers they had acquired (there had been a number of previous attempts) to build a funicular from central Ventnor up to the station lapse. Someone had started to run a motor bus up there and the success of this rendered the funicular redundant. From that moment the railway's fate was settled and the excellent Southern management between the wars, including getting involved in the principal bus company, only kept things at bay for a couple of decades.

Most of the lines had gone before anyone had even heard of Marples and Beeching and if you go up to, say, Merstone, today you can only marvel that anyone should have thought of building a railway there to start with. Personal mechanical transport, rendered it redundant. Restoring them would be an utter waste of resources and people should concentrate their efforts on securing a revamp of what remains and hope against hope that calculations do not favour using the trackbed to bypass Brading, Sandown and Shanklin instead.

PH

 

Somewhat harsh - "large express locos running on branch lines" and owners of stock in "linear scrapyards" are also "real people" and may have far more idea about what they are doing in their own circumstances than "key board" warriors who understand (or think they do) a particular situation but may have missed something about differing circumstances elsewhere.

These Forums exist for discussion and thrive on the "what-ifs". They also are a great place to share differing experiences of the different parts of the world of heritage railways and a very living proof that "one size doesn't fit all". Another conclusion I have come to is that, no matter how considerable any one line or group's achievements, it is unlikely it it perfect and therefore unable to learn from either outside ideas or simply the self-examination of having those not so much in the "know" asking questions. Considering one's organisation to the perfect example to which all others should aspire (and convert) can all too easily to the first step to stagnation.

Steven