Talyllyn Finances

Taking an outsider's view the Talyllyn offers more trains in low season than some North Wales rivals and has a timetable based around long stops at Abergynolwyn when it is assumed that passengers will spend their "gift aid" voucher in the cafe. I'm not sure what proportion of cafe shifts are worked by volunteers but it is easy to see how with paid staff and low off season footfall losses could build up particularly as Abergynolwyn is not blessed with the sorts of passing trade enjoyed by some heritage railway cafes. The best example I can currently think of being the Avon valley at Bitton where a lot of trade comes from users of the cycle and footpath although another example may be the facilities at Tan y Bwlch which appear to be used by both railway users and car based visitors. These examples may imply potential to generate additional revenues by advertising forest walks from the station for those not wishing to buy a train ride but willing to support the cafe as part of their day out.

To encourage people to travel it has been pointed out many times on here that frequency of service is a plus and with low operating costs on the narrow gauge but similar fares to standard gauge the Talyllyn's relatively busy timetable may encourage visits by allowing walks to such as Dolgoch Falls which would not be possible without the flexibility to return on multiple trains resulting in such visitors going by car.

Ultimately it must be for the society to develop its business model as it sees fit. Others have suggested that "pay to play" may be the future as the public loses interest in heritage train rides and the volunteers have to cover more costs in the same way as many sports clubs operate with high subscriptions. In reality, however, that model is probably unworkable as many volunteers already incur massive costs travelling and staying to enjoy their roles and particularly older ones are increasingly squeezed by diminishing disposable income. Let us all hope that a railway that has in so many ways been the founder of the whole movement can find an effective way forward and increase its paid visitor numbers to everyone's benefit.

 

Are you sure about railway catering being highly profitable? I have my doubts, especially where paid staff are used. I suspect the reality is nearer the break even mark but I am in no position to prove this by quoting figures other than those for the NYMR where a loss was incurred on catering (other than diners).

 

profitable when volunteer run, the opposite when paid employees are used. It's probably very easy to run a weekend only volunteer café but harder to do during the week all season.

 

During a previous debate on the Talyllyn, I noted that even their off peak timetable, at least then, used 2 locos and sets of stock so as to enable the first set - which could otherwise have quite easily worked the whole service - to make the stop for compulsory use of the Abergynlowyn Cafe, which Steam Railway now tells us is part of a Catering Department making an overall, and growing, loss. Although narrow gauge locos will be considerably cheaper to 'light up and warm through' than standard gauge, as a proportion of total fuel costs, the extra cost of having an extra loco in steam remains significant, as well as the problem of doubling the train crew required - possibly in order to generate more income for an outlet that is not worth opening on such days!

I am a believer that offering decent catering is part of the 'visitor experience' but also agree with @paulhitch that Catering should be able make a profit and saying 'I don't mind a loss to make it part of the experience' is an unnecessary admission of defeat (and probably an indication of the shortage of somebody who really understands visitor attraction catering!). I have in quite recent times had to point out when this hasn't, after allocation of overheads, been the case (and I knew precisely why but wasn't popular for saying so!) and I suspect many preserved line outlets would struggle to be profitable if paying a market rent for the space they use to the owning body! Certainly, external rents and excess staffing costs are significant enemies of catering profitability. Also, remember that many cafes are owner/managed businesses, whereas larger organisations have a Manager to pay before making any money. Nevertheless, although I am no longer in a position to officially reveal any NYMR Financial details, I would point out that Steve's comment refers to 2015 only (per published accounts) and previously NYMR Catering (excluding the Pullman) was profitable after Overheads (again, as shown by published accounts). And yes, the most profitable outlet is entirely volunteer run (take a bow Levisham Ladies and Gents!)

In my experience, if the journey is long enough and the vehicles used suitable, on train sale of refreshments is the most efficient, be it a buffet car (oh no, I've 'rubbed the lamp'! ) or a trolley - not least because of the low staff numbers required, particularly for the latter. If just one train is running up and down, is there enough 'passing trade' to justify 2 or 3 catering outlets at stations? The biggest problem for preserved railway catering can be the costs, especially labour, involved with providing an extensive menu, especially including hot meals, and I have often wondered how many passengers are looking for, or have time for (I seem to recall the stop at Abergynlowyn is less than half an hour) full meals and how much these are provided for the work force - in other words, is the Catering loss really what it seems or is part 'staff welfare' to ensure that the workers, especially volunteers, are kept fed, watered and willing to come!

Steven

 

I am personally aware of two, both of which are satisfactorily profitable. They are very different. One is operated largely by paid staff, whilst the other is a mixture. One thing they have in common is that there is only one catering outlet on their respective railways. In this connection I do wonder very much about the Abergynolwyn operation which imposes quite a lengthy stop into the operating pattern as well. A candidate for conversion into a holiday let?

PH

 

Abergynolwyn is a great place to sit and watch the world go by, all the better with a cup of tea at hand. As such it would be sorely missed if not there.

I wonder, with the popularity of hill walking and Bryn Eglwys close at hand, whether the TR could promote this activity separately from the Railway and increase patronage at the station café as a result.

 

Sorry to have to say it but vending machine?

PH

 

Interesting that Steam Railway is now an organ of record in view of the battering it gets elsewhere on NP. The minutes of the AGM and council meetings for the TR are all online - go to http://www.talyllyn.co.uk/internal. You will note from the draft AGM minutes that "The August Management Accounts ... showed a year-to-date catering surplus of about £16,000 showed signs that we had turned the corner." This rather reflects the history of this part of the operation in that it has its ups and downs which might be expected over its 60-odd year history. While I have no expertise in this sector, I don't think one can assume that catering is guaranteed to make a contribution, and my guess is that ensuring consistent volunteer support is quite difficult. Railways perhaps do not appeal to the ladies who serve tea and scones at NT properties or are in the wrong location to tap such resources. I suspect it is also highly dependent on the calibre of the paid manager/staff, and like the Welsh NHS and Church of Wales, getting capable people to move there ain't that easy. BTW, who is saying "I don't mind a loss"?

 

Funny place for a cafe!

Tom (I'll get my coat...)

 

not exactly the same is it? I-ve been there in my camper fully fitted with tea making equipment and still bought a tea and a bun on the station... it's nice experience a machine can't replace.

 

I wonder whether something as simple as putting the walk leaflets online would make an impact. I enjoy hill walking (and have spent a fair amount of time in the area - albeit more around Fairbourne) and out of preference I'd prefer to plan a walk before I go somewhere than pick up a leaflet whilst there. It might even be effective to set up a separate "Talyllyn Valley Walks" website which just happens to focus a lot of its routes around the railway and its stations - that way if someone is looking for walks in the area they have an easy way of finding them via Google etc.

To be fair it is a tough area - there is a bit of a tourist void between Barmouth/Dolgellau (and even then they aren't the height of interest apart from Cadair Idris) and Aberystwyth that lacks the consistent collection of attractions to draw significant numbers of people in. There are certainly some nice spots (lovely hotel on the hills at Aberdovey for example) but given its remoteness and the tedious roads, its probably going to be hard work however effectively its managed.

 

Perhaps a look at the past may help? Charabanc trips to Talylyn Lake or even over to Corris?.

The area is indeed a tourist desert. Flyblown seaside towns that may have been quite popular once but don't look very prosperous to me. I always use the inland route and rarely go any closer to the coast than Towyn Wharf car park.

 

Actually, there are some signs that Steam Railway is trying to shake off its "Steam Beano" persona. The latest is an article called "Are we our own Worst Enemy" which seeks to bang some sense into the W.I.B.N. crowd. By the way aren't catering facilities which cost too much to run, a form of W.I.B.N? See the posting by @Beancounter,

PH

 

To be fair there are a few bits around there that could work together on a day out basis - start/finish at the Trefiddian Hotel in Aberdovey - coach up to Tywyn - punters on the train up to Abergynolwyn, pick up by coach and taken to either the Corris railway or the Craft centre on the road down there, followed by the afternoon at the Centre for Alternative Technology and then back to the hotel for evening meal etc. At a stretch you could probably do it as a day out from Aber. Trying to remember what we used to do as a day out from near Fairbourne back in the day - think it was coach to the Torrent Walk near Dolgellau, on from their to Dolgoch Falls and then train down into Tywyn, bit of time in Tywyn and then back up the coast stopping off at a very old church on the coast (Llangelynnin) (was a church based holiday hence the interest). Interestingly the place that ran that trip still operates but these days the clientele all come by car rather than by train etc, so the need to put on a coach day out doesn't exist anymore (talking 30 years on!).

 

The question of who a cafe is for is a pertinent one.

On the railway I'm currently involved with, I imagine the cafe probably runs around the break-even mark (I've lost my copy 0f last years accounts), but I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of the total spend in it is from the volunteer staff rather than the general public (the same applies to the station's bar, except the proportion of staff spend is even higher).

I think the public tend to assume a cafe will be available in these sorts of places, and not having half-way eddible food on offer probably would count as a "black mark" in the eyes of the traveling public, however that would be nothing compared to the black mark in the eyes of the staff. When you've been there since early doors lighting up, cleaning and preping a loco, the prospect of not getting a bacon and egg oat-cake and brew before going off-shed just doesn't bear thinking about...

 

You would be surprised just how much can be made!

Paul H

 

Are any railways outsourcing the effort of catering to the burgeoning 'pop-up' industry of food carts and vans? Would seem a good potential route to reduce the risk and investment necessary for food and drink provision whilst still providing a service to visitors. After all, people adept at restoring railways aren't necessarily the same people adept at food and drink, and food entrepreneurs looking for a captive-ish market…

(saying all that, it looks like slim pickings in Wales, based on the numbers of traders listed here… http://www.ncass.org.uk/show_caterers.aspx <- search for 'wales')

Simon

 

Given the history of contract caterers on the railways, going right back to the Swindon refreshment rooms, that might not be the panacea it might seem.

 

I suspect you may need a very fast taxi too..........