If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

The Citadel 9/11/19

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by pete12000, Oct 29, 2019.

  1. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    1,599
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    The Citadel 09 November 2019 – 44871 & 45407 hauling 10+2 POBs

    Ian Riley Railtours set the bar very high with last year’s inaugural Citadel; the load was light (9 coaches) and the weather was good and so were the times. This year the train was 12 coaches and full – how would the girls fare? The day (night) was cold and I had to scrape the ice from my car before driving the 8 miles to Bolton (on the way I was treated to a spectacular orange sunrise). There was a bitter east wind blowing as around 100 passengers waited on platform 4 for our train to arrive. The train looked superb as it pulled into the platform; 44871 leading 45407 at the head of 12 maroon coaches. I took my (backward-facing, aisle) seat at the very back of the 11th coach; still it was nice and warm. The warmth was a leftover from the ETH on the ECS move; despite various attempts to fix it, the steam heating did not work throughout the day.

    We left 1L towards Chorley. The line climbs gently (av 1/450r) to a summit just beyond Horwich Parkway, near to where we crossed under the M61 (60.1). We cruised at around 60; Blackrod (61 & 1L), Adlington (61.2 & RT), Chorley (62.1 & 1E) then we braked approaching Buckshaw Parkway (20 & 5E) and we stopped for 4 min before Euxton Jn. Once away we trundled up the WCML (FL) before branching off at Farington Jn and up the chord to Lostock Hall Jn (21 & 1¾L). Here the climb to Hoghton begins with ¾ mile of 1/224r to Bamber Bridge (31 & 2½L); the gradient then stiffens towards Gregson Lane (2 miles of 1/99r) followed by a further 2 miles of 1/101r to the summit; we held 31/2 all the way with 33.3 at the summit (as most of the train headed downhill). Some steady running in the mid 40s saw us stop in pl1 at Blackburn (5¼L); this was our final pick up. The man with the seat alongside me had stayed in the buffet car for some time and when he returned he kindly offered me his window seat.

    We departed 5L, through the tunnel, across Daisyfield Jn followed by the climb up to Wilpshire; much less testing in this direction with 2 miles of 1/127/162r topped by a brief 1/73r. The view back towards Blackburn from the A6119 at Brownhill has been restored in recent months as all the vegetation has been cleared in preparation for house building. Let’s hope that a view remains. It was good steady acceleration up to 34.5 as we crossed under the A6119 and, as the 11th coach passed the summit, we were up to 35.3. Through Ramsgreave & Wilpshire (40.6 & 6L); speed was held around 50 as we headed down the bank; Langho (1½L), Whalley (1¼E). We made our way towards Clitheroe before slowing whilst the preceding unit crossed over at Horrocksford Jn to return towards Blackburn; it was just drawing into Clitheroe as we passed through (4¼E). We carried onto our water stop at Chatburn, arriving 1E. We had a booked 65 min stop, trapped in a cold carriage – oh joy!

    I obtained crew details from a couple of sources and I hope that they are correct. 44871 – driver Mick Rawling, fireman Callum Titley; 45407 – driver Chris Cubitt, fireman Matt Durkin. Roly Parker was the guard. Our scheduled allowed 16 min to run the 11¾ miles from here to Hellifield which seemed odd on a 45 mph line; I thought that we might leave early. The guy sitting alongside me took his bag and coat and moved elsewhere (warmer?). Our departure time came and went and we finally left 7L and ran with no great urgency; only 25 as we climbed the 1/101r through Rimington. In retrospect, with several delayed trains through Hellifield, I wonder if a “slot” had been agreed with the signalman at Hellifield. Whatever it was, with the briefest of stops at Hellifield signal box (10s), we were onto the main line.

    We accelerated through the platform (20.5 & 14½L), speed built quickly and we sped through Long Preston (48.5 & 15L). A mile before Settle Jn and we were up to 60, past Settle Jn SB (62.9 & 14½L), we reached a max of a little over 63 before the gradient began to bite. With 12 coaches we were climbing very well; 54.1 as we shot through Settle (14L) but inevitably we began to lose some momentum and speed fell to 41 as we entered Stainforth Tunnel. The girls dug in with a minimum of 39.9 across Sheriff Brow. The miniscule easing (less than ¼ mile of 1/200r) before Helwith Bridge saw us back up to 42 (but still 14½L). Now for some respite and we reached 47.1 on the level as we approached Crag Hill Farm. We thundered on with 43.5 through Horton in R, up to 44.2 on the brief easing to 1/200r and 44.5 on the second easing (MP243.5), this was good stuff! We were still travelling at 43 as we passed Selside cottages but down to 41.7 at Selside. Speed gradually fell back as we ran parallel to the road at Selside Shaw, and was down to 39.4 as we ducked under the road bridge. We were now only a mile from Ribblehead and speed was allowed to fall; Ribblehead (32.5 & 14¾L), across Batty Moss and past Blea Moor SB (29.5 & 14¼L). There was no charge towards the tunnel, we briefly touched 30 and into Blea Moor Tunnel at 29.9. The times are a testament to a very good climb with a heavy load. Settle Jn SB to Blea Moor SB 19m 41s and Settle Jn SB to Blea Moor Tunnel S 21m 20s. Even 11 coaches back and with all the windows closed (a very cold day and no heating) it had been possible to hear the girls going about their work.

    Even though we were running late, there was no merit in gaining speed as we had the 20 mph TSR at Dent Head and the 30 mph PSR at Dent to contend with. Once clear we set about regaining the deficit; Garsdale (59.7 & 16L) across Dandry Mire at 62.9 and Ais Gill summit (56.2 & 16L) and onto the downhill. We pressed on with speed around 60ish, we slowed through Appleby (54.7 & 14½L), Kirkby Thore (59.8 & 12¼L) and Culgaith Xng (60.6 & 12L). We stopped in Langwathby (13¼L) to take water from a tanker parked on the station car park. The carriages were out of the platform and we were booked for a 46 min stop. The locos had run almost 69 miles from Chatburn. Our stop was reduced to 30 min and we left 3E for the final 20 miles to Carlisle. There was a dusting of snow on the top of Cross Fell – brrr!

    By Lazonby we were 3¼E, down through the tunnels and up to Armathwaite (47.4 & 2¾E), down again and 53.8 across Drybeck Viaduct where we began to slow; presumably the Low House Xng distant was sighted at caution. We ran slowly to just short of the Xng and stopped for 3 min before proceeding. It transpired that signal wire was broken. We passed the crossing 3¾L and with only 8 miles to Carlisle our hopes of a RT arrival had taken a knock. On past Howe & Co SB (59.9 & 4½L), reduced to to 3L at Petteril Br Jn, still in with a chance – until we were held for 3 min at Carlisle S Jn. We finally stopped in pl3 at Carlisle 5½L. I had time for a walk to the front to see the locos which were just as splendid as on Sunday. Ian Riley was at the regulator of 45407 and Mick Kelly was about to get into the cab of 44871, I saw Mick Rawling on the platform but not Chris Cubitt (off at Langwathby?)

    I wandered off to the WW for fish and chips; the choice at Wetherspoons is becoming more McDonalds by the week (other fast/junk food outlets are available). I had a couple of errands in the centre and then returned to the station. The ECS had remained in the platform and after a few minutes the girls appeared; all steam and smoke in the cold air as they approached the station. Once coupled up it was time to return to my seat, now at the front of the 4th coach. Informed opinion was that we should get some heat as we were now closer to the locos – no such luck. The crews were (as informed to me); 44871 – driver David Blair, fireman Matt Earnshaw, 45407 driver Ian Riley, conductor Mick Kelly and fireman Phil Akester and Peter James was the guard.

    We left at 15.18 (RT), still in daylight and still dry. Leaving Carlisle there is ¾ mile of level track (28.4) followed by around 4 miles of 1/131r towards Wreay, topped at 42.9. The gradient then eases for 1¾ miles (1/184r) topped at 47.3, a short ¼ mile of level track allowed speed to reach 50.1. Windows were shut but they could not keep out the wonderful noise from the front. Next comes 3 miles of 1/228r, just over ½ mile in we passed Southwaite (51.6 & 2½L) and went on to top the section at 54.8. The gradient tightens to 1/172r approaching Calthwaite and speed fell back to 53.7 but the girls fought back and the ¾ mile of 1/164r that follows was topped at 55. Next onto the level and past Plumpton loop (60 & 1L) with 59 at the end of the level section. Onto 2 miles of 1/186r with a min of 54 just south of where the line crosses the B5305 – Black 5s everywhere! We reached 60.4 in the dip before Penrith and thundered through the station at 58.9 (RT) before we began slowing for our time inside in the Eden Valley Loop; we stopped, after a slow run in, 1¾L. We were booked to wait 40 min for the passage of 3 trains; the first, a TP passed 8 min later (running late), the last passed and, 2 min later (¼L), we were off, in rapidly fading light, and straight onto the 1/125r.

    There is around 10 miles to Shap summit; the first 6 miles at 1/125r. Just over ½ a mile after starting from the loop we passed Clifton & Lowther (25 & 1½L). 1 mile from the start and up to 30.7, 2 miles 35.1, 3 miles 42.1, 4 miles 44.6, Thrimby Grange (45.1), 5 miles 45.6 and 6 miles 46.7; the girls were smokin’! The gradient eases to 1/142r for 1¼ miles, topped at 49.1 and up to 52.4 at the end of the level past Shap village. Onto the final mile of 1/106r where speed fell back to 43.1. I passed the Summit Board at 47.6 (2L) and the light had all but gone. From starting at Eden Valley loop to passing the Summit Board had taken 15m 49s – this is the cruellest of paths, but what fun. Light rain had begun to fall as we dropped down the hill; speeds regularly being checked from the low 60s down to the high 50s. We were ½E at Lowgill but then slowed: I thought that we might be looped at Grayrigg but we passed by at 20mph (TSR?). This had cost us some time and we were 1½L through Oxenholme (58) but RT at Milnthorpe (55.3) then a very slow approach to Carnforth, to allow the junction to clear, saw us stop 6¼L. This was our final water stop – the girls were going all the way!

    It was just after 18:00 when we left (1½L). We accelerated quickly (enough to convince some fellow travellers that there was a diesel on the back – oh ye of little faith!) After a mile we were up to 40 and by Morecambe S Jn (56) we were RT. We failed to reach the qualifying 60 through Lancaster (58.8 & RT), but plenty of whistles. It was raining more steadily as we travelled along with speed in the high 50s and in pitch darkness. We reached our first set down at Preston pl5 and stopped ¼L. Away again (½L), with a slight slip, we were soon passing through Leyland at 29.5 on the SL. We had a pathing stop of 12 min before Euxton Jn, but by running very slowly we reduced this to 2 min before traffic cleared and allowed us to cross (2½E). The schedule was undemanding and despite cruising in the mid 50s we easily gained time culminating in us being 10½E at Lostock. We stopped in pl3, at a still cold Bolton. I had time for one last look at the locos; Mick Kelly was on the footplate of 44871 but it was too dark to see on 45407 (possibly David Blair and Ian Riley). I understand that the plan was for David Blair to collect the diesel from the siding at Man Vic, run it up to Brewery Jn to collect the ECS and for the girls with their POBs to depart Thorpes Bridge to Bury. I was home for a couple of minutes after 8pm, Mrs W was flattening the battery on her ipad before reverting to jigsaw and wine.

    It is always a good day out with the girls and my thanks to all who made it possible and so enjoyable and thanks also to those who have posted photos and videos. It was good to see @RalphW again who was stewarding and there was time for a chat with @torgormaig who was guard on the return. I shared a table with couple of regulars, from Birmingham, who had arranged to meet up with Gordon Hodgson in Carlisle; they said that he appeared still to be missing the footplate – absolutely understandable.
     
    ragl, John Merry, nige757 and 8 others like this.
  2. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    30,276
    Likes Received:
    5,040
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Good to meet you, and those were definitely interesting malts, not that I was able to sample them being on duty.
     
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    14,205
    Likes Received:
    10,791
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks for the narrative. So was your coach without steam heat the same one as didn't have heat on The South Yorkshireman? If so then that is poor. The stock sits all week at Carnforth. Nobody fixes the coach or changes it for one that works. High time for a FTR exam for the rolling stock to the same standard as for the locomotives.
     
  4. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    1,599
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    Don’t know for sure as I don’t take stock numbers. Last week it was next to last in formation also next to last this week but with an extra coach so depends where the extra coach was added. I understand that there was a heating problem in the last coach yesterday, corridor brake used by stewards. But I agree at this time of year heating should work but if the alternative is a diesel on the back - thermal vest for me.
     
  5. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,302
    Likes Received:
    2,596
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, Cumbria
    Looking at a video of the pair backing down at Carlisle, there were two POB's.
     
  6. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,302
    Likes Received:
    2,596
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, Cumbria
  7. torgormaig

    torgormaig Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,644
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Eh? Since when did a steam loco fail its FTR because the steam heat did not work? FTR is a safety inspection and trains can still run safely without heat.

    Then, as the guard on the return yesterday I have to refute @Oswald T Whistle's claim that the heating did not work because I went through the entire train several times to check this, to say nothing of an exterior inspection of the heating leaks under the train during the stop in Eden Valley loop. There was not a single carriage in the train that was not warm within half an hour of leaving Carlisle. You only had to leave the saloons and go into the vestibule areas to appreciate this - with no heat the saloons would have been almost as cold as the vestibules were (as I discovered on the ecs move back to Carnforth). Now people's perception of heat and cold varies considerably and we regularly get people complaining of being too hot or too cold in the same coach. Our postman is still doing his rounds in shorts while I go out with a thick coat on at this time of year. My underframe examination of the heating system impressed me by the fact that with one possible exception none of the pipework was leaking, which is a big improvement on the situation only a couple of years ago when corroded pipework was endemic. The leaks were all related to joints around the shut off valves, and while they wasted a lot of steam they did not prevent heat getting to the whole train. Both this week's and last week's
    train used the same stock and could not be described as cold during the second half of the day when I was on it. They were warm, rather than hot although I had to request that the heat be turned off during the afternoon of last week's trip as the train was hot enough. Steam does take a while to heat a train and this is not helped when people leave vestibule droplights and saloon toplights open better to hear the locos working. Much as we do try to please everyone it does seem that despite our best efforts we have not found the magic formula that has everyone content.

    Peter
     
    Haighie, 60017, dopeyt and 8 others like this.
  8. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    1,599
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    Sorry Ian, also 2 last week. Thinking about it it might not have been the same coach. When the coaches are stopped the lights are in a low output mode, as the train speed increases (and the output from the dynamo/alternator? rises) the lights change to high output. Last week this happened every time at precisely 28 mph, this week it happened at 27.5 mph every time. It could, of course, be the same coach and is temperature related. Ok, how sad can you get watching the gps to see when the lights come on - but in a former life I was an electrical engineer.
     
  9. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,302
    Likes Received:
    2,596
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, Cumbria
    Ah well, that's fair enough then!!
     
  10. osprey

    osprey Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,655
    Likes Received:
    299
    Occupation:
    semi-retired, currently doing R&D for my patents
    Location:
    Halifax
    We fully understand...
     
  11. Davo

    Davo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2018
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    189
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    W yorkshire 56f
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Looks like some great fast running videos up the S.AND.C and through bolton chorley and up the West coast mainline and above 40mph most of the way and passenger pick ups at man vic Bolton Blackburn and passenger drop offs at preston Bolton Man vic return, OP stops at eden valley goods loop and 2 water stops at chatburn and langwathby outward and 1 at 10A on the return hope all travellers on the citadel enjoyed the day.:)
    Davo 56F
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  12. JohnRobinson

    JohnRobinson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    952
    Location:
    Great Harwood, Lancs
    09/11/2019 - LMS Stanier Black 5`s - 44871 & 45407 at Newsholme with "The Citadel" heading towards Hellifield running from Manchester to Carlisle via the S & C.
    DSC_17888.jpg
     
    ragl, Landshrew, 26D_M and 11 others like this.
  13. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2019
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Kirkcaldy
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Using video footage there was a man with silver hair and glasses driving 45407 early on the northbound leg with Chris Cubitt watching on. Anyone know who?
     
  14. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,811
    Likes Received:
    4,303
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Tobacco manufacturing
    Location:
    Kendal
    Wasn’t me as I was lineside ;)
     
  15. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    30,276
    Likes Received:
    5,040
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Probably Ian Riley, well he does have white hair and wears glasses and OTWhistle said Chris Cubitt was on 5407.
     
  16. Britfoamer

    Britfoamer Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    671
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chemist (semi-retired)
    Location:
    Within 2 miles of the ELR
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My two shots to add to the pile, Hoghton Bank and HelwithBridge. P1110551.JPG P1110552.JPG
     
    Johnb, ragl, Landshrew and 10 others like this.
  17. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2019
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Kirkcaldy
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer


    It wasn't Ian Riley!
     
  18. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    11,448
    Likes Received:
    7,530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Probably a stupid question, but with two locomotives in common ownership and the same class do they really need 2 POB's?
     
  19. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    30,276
    Likes Received:
    5,040
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I believe 45407 and 44871 had stopped at Carnforth en route home from FW to have something attended to that could not be done at Bury, therefore the two POBs were also there and taking them out for the day trip was the easiest way to get them home.
     
    Big Al likes this.
  20. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    11,448
    Likes Received:
    7,530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The POB's both seem to be WCRC branded anyway?
     

Share This Page