The future of rail could be this 75-year-old steam locomotive

I'm still not sure it stacks up, but I guess it is a more marginal point.

Let's call that market the "luxury charter market" to distinguish from the "heritage" market, because it clearly isn't heritage.

Let's also assume that the 5AT, if built, met its design objectives which if I understand correctly, are greater duration without servicing (especially taking on fuel and water); faster acceleration; higher sustained speed. Those objectives taken together would enable operators in the luxury charter market using the 5AT as motive power to exploit paths that simply aren't available to current steam locomotives.

However, for operational resilience, when you sell your trip, you need to be confident that another locomotive could deputise if your primary loco is unservicable. With current mainline steam, that is fairly simple, since broadly (gross simplification coming), any, say, class 8 loco can deputise for any other. So if you advertise a trip with Clan Line and it isn't available, there are several other locos that could deputise.

But if you use the 5AT and you exploit its extra capability, by definition none of the existing mainline steam locos could deputise (particularly if you exploit the extended range capability of the 5AT). There are only two ways round that problem. Option 1 is to use the 5AT, but not exploit it to its full operational potential so that any other existing "heritage" steam loco could deputise. That gives you resilience, but becomes a bit of a "so what" question: if you aren't using the full capability, why bother? After all, for the £10m or so estimated cost to design and build the first prototype 5AT, you could have 3 or more Peppercorn A1s, which straight away gives you more resilience. Option 2 is to exploit the 5AT, but that means building several all at once so that if the booked one fails, there is another available to take over the service to the same timings. But that means building, straight off the drawing board, not one loco but several; and even assuming the second, third etc are cheaper, they will still be more expensive than just batch building Pepercorn A1s (or any other suitable "heritage" loco you care to mention).

So, I can accept the point that for the luxury charter market, provided it goes chuff and emits steam it doesn't matter what it looks like. But even allowing for that, for operational resilience reasons a single 5AT provides no operational advantage over a heritage steam engine (either new build or genuine heritage), while a fleet of 5ATs to get the operational resilience would be ruinously expensive - at least compared to a similar fleet of new build "heritage" locos.

As always, just my $0.02...

Tom

 

Sorry, but i just cannot see 5AT. With only three coupled axles how can its acceleration be better than other locos also with three coupled axles? Also, I cannot see how a Class 5 boiler can in this project generate something in the order of twice the amount of steam compared with that of existing boilers of that size. Additionally, there is a fundamental flaw in the chassis, which, in my view, will give anything other than reliability. Finally, no one wants it enough to stump up the cash. Is is doomed.

 

Well in fact the 5AT did look heritage enough for the general public(maybe a matter of opinion for our fraternity) and after 10years it would have had its own heritage anyway. By the same token, for example, if someone had preserved GT3 -it would taken about 10 years for it to take its place in the heritage ranks. Regarding the 3rd world I meant in its heritage market-and not necessarily a 5AT. I to have witnessed the ingenuity of 3rd world mechanics and they can cope with anything that is thrown at them. They would keep a 5AT running forever.

Precisely my point-but good job they kept the Household Cavalry...and no need to modify the horses!

 

There is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't

There is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't...and you mention doomed? Well I don't suppose you could be just a little less glib?

 

I think these suggestions by some that we are creating our own heritage - Austerity you mentioned that after 10 years 5AT would have its own heritage - are dangerous, historically speaking.

The preservation/heritage railway movement is something of which we can be justifiably proud. It has changed immensely from 1950 when a knackered 0-4-0WT wheezed up and down equally knackered track with a train of loose-fitted four wheelers in darkest West Wales. The mainline scene has changed immensely from the days of Hardwicke and the Coal Tank over the mid-Wales. We may look back on these preservation pasts and feel nostalgic. We may say 'it wasn't like this in the early days' with a dash of whimsy at the photos of enthusiasts crawling all over locomotives and swarming around Bridgnorth MPD.

But we must always, always remember, that all of these things were recreations in themselves. There is a bigger heritage to which we owe allegiance - the 'actual' railway heritage (it's a poor word but I can't think of an alternative) - the heritage of the Talyllyn and other narrow gauge lines pre-preservation, the heritage of the real steam-powered mainline and industrial networks. We are in the business of recreating the past, and whilst we make history as we do it with the likes of Tornado and 6233 pulling the Royal Train in 2002, we must always remember that we are only doing so as an aside to that business of recreation.

This is not me calling for absolute adherence to authenticity - we all know that that is impossible. What I'm saying is that the proud heritage we create as a movement is secondary, for we must always remember it is serving that higher past that we are endeavouring to recreate. We may feel nostalgia for what we have created, but we must remember why we created it in the first place.

Basically, what I mean to say is that we shouldn't be preserving and running and playing for preservation's sake - we must remember why we chose to do this in the first place.

 

Do all three-coupled designs have the same acceleration? Surely todays engineers could improve upon the performance, given the opportunity, of the locomotives of 60+ years ago. This doesn't require a change in the laws of physics, just the application of more recent knowledge.

It isn't a class 5 boiler, it is a modern design with better exhaust & combustion systems.

What is it?

I agree! That is why the project has been abandoned. Regardless of any performance advantages there is no market for an expensive but ugly loco like this.

 

Don't we love disparaging our customers? Actually I wonder how many such people there really are... I shouldn't be at all suprised if there's at least one person in every party, probably the one who had the idea of organising the trip in the first place, who has at least an appreciation of what's on the front, even if (like me) they can't tell you the difference between the valve events on an A4 and a Merchant Navy. Some of the operating companies probably have an idea of how much the choice of loco affects the traffic.

Personally I felt the 5AT had two problems. The first was that it was to a good extent an engineering solution looking for a business problem, and the second was all the drawings were unredeemedly ugly to eyes used only to British steam design.

 

That is the most succint description of why it failed that I have seen.

Tom

 

I was exaggerating to make a point. I would think the majority of passengers on the hi-end tours out of London aren't fussed as to what loco's on the front. A modern loco. eg 5AT painted in a familiar livery would satisfy most I reckon. Then again, I have no issues with steam locos from outside of this little island of ours either. They may be less neat and tidy, but they still stir the blood, and several can teach us a thing or too in terms of performance too. Conversely you could achieve many of the benefits of the 5AT design in a more 'British' outline of course. Anyway, it's a moot point now.

 

...A moot point...of course it is...hence its presence on this forum.

 

(the 5AT)...'was to good extent an engineering solution looking for a business problem'

On the contrary ... (the 5AT)... 'was to a good extent an engineering problem looking for a business solution'...true and succint?...Yeh OK. It hasn't failed - 5AT or which it spawns will have its day...

 

Well said Jamie but by the same token the heritage business now already has its own heritage. Next year the KESR will be celebrating the early years of preserving their line by operating Marcia and Gervaise together - the driving force-nostalgia. It's a question of balance.

 

Indeed yes, we are creating our own heritage, but it is a byproduct I feel to the main point of what we do. As I say, we should not be doing it for its own sake.