THE LAST KING : 6018.

I should just clarify, im not having a go at the NRM or any museums, I just find 'living' machines attract much more interest, I remember going round the old Scienec Museum in Birmingham as a kid, as well as the obligatory visit to see 46235, I remember they had one or two WWII fighters in there, and at the time I wasn't terribly impressed with what was presented, it was only years later at an Airshow seeing a Spitfire & Hurricane in action I thought, wow that's impressive.

 

Just digressing a little, but on a similar subject. Anthony, a question. When is the roller unit operating Ellerman Lines going to be fixed?

 

I'll ask the question. I know we've been looking at it, as well as how to make its display more dynamic and meaningful.

 

I loved Newhall Street, being able to get close and personal with the machinery - I still think the bread wrapping machine was the best!

The whistle demo was also a lot of fun, as were the old Science Museum steam rallies, with the engines running round the city streets...

 

Oh for heavens sake this old argument. What would you say to this statement:

'I hereby demand the steaming of the original Rocket in the Science Museum. After all, what is its interpretational value sat all cold?'

'Oh, well...Rocket's so old' - So will 46235 be in a century. We'll all be dead. What would the people of the future say if we were to steam everything?

'Oh, well...there's a replica of Rocket' - So build a replica of 46235 if you want to see her steam so much.

'Oh, well...you'd have to replace so much of Rocket. You wouldn't with 46235' - You'd be surprised. And you'd only need do it once to lose so much.

Totally agree and support you, Anthony.

 

Sounds like GGG in manchester back in 2009 where a certain traction engine and steam roller could be heard at granada when they were at the arndale!

Duncan

 

Presumably you have no problem with the SVR restoring its historic steam engines?

 

That's different Neil, the SVR is a heritage railway, the NRM is a Museum - defintion 'Museums enable people to explore collections for inspiration, learning and enjoyment. They are institutions that collect, safeguard and make accessible artefacts and specimens, which they hold in trust for society.'

 

But surely the SVR engines are there to be used, so they have to be overhauled and maintained.

 

Anthony beat me to it - the SVR is a heritage railway. Thinktank and the NRM are museums.

 

Museums can both though with operational railway and static exhibits. Indeed I remember one time at manchester up cleaning a certain Georgian replica and visitors were amazed that it would be in steam at the weekend.

Duncan

 

I didn't say YOU were on a different planet. It was not directed at anyone in particular, it was simply a general comment on a particular mentality that seems common in Museum environments. The "we know best" kind of mentality, and often justified with spurious and purile statements like - we must preserve the paint, cos it's really important. Particularly irritating when it comes from people who know a lot less about the subject matter in their museum than the people coming in through the door.

If the cap fits, then wear it. I guess it probably doesn't in your case. But I'm sure that if you've worked in a museum environment you must know exactly what I'm talking about - but can't admit as much. Actually I have met a museum curator who had absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the subject matter in his museum. In fact he freely admitted he hated it and was just biding his time until he could find a post that suited his taste, which are rather thin on the ground. Unfortunately he's done a lot of damage during the fifteen or so years he's been there and completely demotivated the people under him.

Please read carefully what is said in postings, and don't be tempted to jump to conclusions about personal attacks. And that applies to everyone who reads these posts. [there's another poster who says "build another 46235 if you want to see it running so much" - or words to that effect - but you see, I never said that. People who make comments like that are simply showing their own ignorance]

 

What's the difference? Many museums have 'demonstation lines' and heritage railways have museums or display rooms.

It seems odd that some people who say that you can't touch an engine in a musuem because it would ruin its heritage are happy for preserved railways to replace original parts on GW, LMS, SR, LNER and BR engines.

A huge contradiction surely?

 

No - not at all, it's a matter of core purpose. I've already out the deifinition of a museum, railways are something different.

And as regards individual locos, certainly for the NRM we take each item on its own merits - either you preserve in aspic as it were, or you preserve for another purpose, such as operation - and accept therefore that bits wear out and need replacing. We have a hierarchy of replacement too - bearings, tyres, piston rings etc, are at scale 5, where you treat them as consumables and scale 1 is frames. The two can be reviewed and changed if the argument is good enough - hence the Well Tank steamed after 30+ years out of action.

 

OK, I read it the wrong way and apologise for raising my hackles - I guess I am still sore about some of the personal attacks made here in the past. As for caps fitting, I gave up on headwear on locos a long time ago...

I do understand where you're coming from and in certain cases (not at the NRM I hasten to add) I have had to work very hard to undo the bad PR done by people such as the chap you mention. I could probably even guess the museum, but won't!

As a general statement, the NRM collection has an enthusiast at the helm, and a goodly number of enthusiasts on the staff, all of whom care deeply about the stuff entrusted to us - but believe me, although I might come across scratchy at times, it's that enthusiasm which keeps me on NatPres, because I enjoy the subject, and actually debates such as this keeps me on my toes and reminds me why I do what I do - so thank you everyone.

 

I think you do a dis-service to heritage railways Anthony though. They aren't just tourist attractions or fun rides. Many make a very serious attempt to be educational and provide interpretative facilities so that people can learn and understand about railway's historical role in our society. A musuem isn't just the only place to do that - some preserved railways do a better job at it than some museums.

Regarding locomotive overhauls: You haven't really address my point. There's little point in people claiming you can't overhaul a locomotive because its paint job was the last from Swindon or Crewe but then support the overhaul of a GW or LMS engine where original parts are being replaced by new ones. There's no consistency in this view.

 

Oh and by the way, poor old 6018 - so near and yet so far. Dad went to see her on that last trip.

 

Please could people refrain from personal attacks. We are supposed to be bringing the heritage community together not dividing it!

As my earlier post indicated museums can be both as can preserved railways.

Let's get back on topic. Reading the earlier posts it does sound interesting about butlins. You do wonder where things would be if the railway works had said yes to the two engines.

Duncan

 

Come for a pint in Tywyn Neil and we can discuss this til closing time and after!

I did not set out to do a disservice to railways - and indeed some are now accredited museums in their own right, which shows a third age of preservation - From Restore then Run and now Think. I do wonder at times though when sometimes I see a leaflet which says "More than a Train Ride" and I wonder "Is it?". Yes, many lines do make a serious attempt and succeed very well indeed - and they are quite often the more long established ones who have got to the thinking stage.

There is not consistency because as I say, we take each locomotive, carriage and wagon on their own merits and assess them on an individual basis. You'd be amazed how few vehicles in the NRM is truly "original", "authentic" maybe, but not original. This is due to the BTC policy of "Building things back" and thus we have ended up with such machines as the Compound, which is only true to itself with its 7F tender. Are we preserving the whole form of the loco (and we have some like that - Coppernob and others) or the function of the machine, the assemblage of parts known by its identity (Scotsman)?

What private owners or societies do with their locos is up to them - but increasingly more and more are beginning to ask similar questions, and funders are also addressing the issue when grant applications are received.

 

I know you didn't set to do a dis-service to preserved railways but there are other ways to provide the educational and interpretative element aside from a musuem. Even our own beloved Talyllyn has a musuem attached to it - a good example of how heritage railways offer the same kind of 'experience' the NRM can albeit on a different scale (pun/no pun intended!).

I think there is a time coming where some groups may decide that the next overhaul may be one too far for unique engines or extremely important ones where too much would be lost in returning the engine to steam. However we should be careful with protecting paint jobs on and watching engines being overhauled with new components and destroying their heritage at the same time.