The skill of the Engineman

I remember those trains with the Duchess, 11 Mk1s plus the three coach wine and dine set from York. I once photographed it at Selside and I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a tower of clag from a Duchess since.
As you say in steam days the driver would have to think of his fireman, unlike today, he would go home at the end of his shift and then have to come back and do it all again the following day. There were good reasons why the infamous Crewe North Perth lodging turn had the following day as mandatory rest day. I think the Water Orton -Carlisle Class C must have been equally challenging when it was worked by a hand fired Black 5. To set against that 21st century firemen are generally not as young as their predecessors.

 

Did not the investigation and subsequent report identify inadequate lubrication as the cause and concluded that failure eventually would have occurred at 75mph?

 

The subject of thrashing comes up now and again here.
It's another, I know it when I see it thing.
As we know, you can extract extra power from steam engine by mortgaging your water. You are adding the the stored energy to the continuous output of your boiler. That underlies my point about P tanks. It's one of times we get close to how engines worked for real, apart from the speed part. On the other hand is, say using full gear and reg to shunt off a hill using 3/4 of a glass in 1/4 of a mile thrashing ? Or just a hard shunt. Then you have the issue of showboating. Yes, of course I've done it. Our visitors are paying for an experience. It's rare for me though. Some of my mates like more of a performance from their turns. I try just to operate the control's competently.
I also think we have forgotten just how hard engines were worked. On another thread there was a question about engines being shopped after a few years. Holcroft gives about 3 1/2 years between shops for a C class from memory.
We just don't use them like that these days. Rightly so. They are living museum pieces.

 

Bringing facts or reports into the equation - you can't do that. You must not challenge another person's preconceptions, not in the current enlightenment. You will be called out for being offensive, you might even get "cancelled" - which can be seen as an achievement.

 

Not to mention the inevitable human tendency to push the limits. Its a very human thing to interpret "75mph but you can go up to 85mph down appropriate gradients in order to rush the next bank" as "85mph". And the more complex the rules are then the less likely it is people will follow them.

 

Small price to pay for being allowed on the network from Penzance to Wick (or possibly Helmsdale). We have benefitted a lot from open access.

 

The other aspect to consider is that wear and tear has to be paid for by the loco owner, often a volunteer run owning group with limited resources. The rate of component wear and speed are linked and the former rises on an exponential scale as the latter rises. I doubt if many owning groups would take advantage of any rise on the upper speed limit

 

Yes 100% agree - I think my pointing to the incident - was more to highlight a specific instance where it may of been deemed/thought that a locomotive had been pushed past its limit - being onboard the tour it didn't feel like it. Improvements were also made in other areas by the A1 Trust following the incident too.

 

Up to a point that is so. However, on a hilly route the mainline (and to a extent heritage line) requirement to run at near constant speed rather than near constant power output is harder than it need be on boilers. @Big Al point about the LSWR west of Salisbury is well made: in days past locos would have been driven less hard up the hills, knowing you could keep the steam on down the other side and let speed rise. Nowadays the same road would be series of all-out sprints on the banks followed by recovery back down the other side with speed kept in check. Enthusiast-friendly and probably better for pathing amongst modern traction, but lots of thermal cycles on the boiler. (And, as this is a thread about footplate crew experience, probably a harder job to manage for the fireman as well).

Tom

 

My (and others') theory is that the good driver tries to keep the steam demand on the boiler fairly constant, so again, allowing speed to fall on the upgrades and rise downhill. Maintaining high speed both up and down isn't kind to either the engine or fireman, despite Cecil J. Allen's and Ossie Nock's opinions on the subject.

 

Yes, which is my point about constant power (rather than constant speed). Constant power = constant steam demand - obviously at a level within the capabilities of the loco and fireman! That has to be preferable to an all-out assault on every bank.

Tom

 

Interesting anecdote, thank you for sharing. But how much colder is the fire and/or brick arch going to be after an hour and a quarter of sitting around at SP than it is going to be prior to the first train of the day?

 

Probably not a lot of difference - but that’s why I’m a fireman and the cleaner isn’t As a general rule, the second trip is normally easier to fire than the first, but on this occasion they were probably more equal on account of the long layover. But no two trips are ever identical.

Tom

 

Can you 'thrash' a steam loco? Depending exactly what you mean by thrash, I don't think so. What you can do with them is defined by the design and you can't exceed that in terms of tractive effort. You can exceed its boiler horsepower for a short period by mortgaging the boiler but that is not thrashing it in my opinion. With regard to overloading locos as referred to in the case of the Jubilee above, BR and their predecessors generally fixed the load limit on what a rundown loco could do with a mediocre fireman; there was no point in upping the game to a higher level of operation because for the most part, this would be a regular happening. In this respect, a Black 5, B1 or Standard tank were allowed 5 coaches without a pilot over what is now the NYMR. Today, these same locos take seven coaches day in, day out with no problem and take eight on an occasional basis. They aren't being thrashed and the task is well within their capabilities but if the loco is run down or the fireman poor, that soon makes a big difference.
Drivers may not be able to thrash their locos but they can certainly thrash their fireman and there are those that do that. They can also mishandle locos but that is a different matter.

 

Steve's question is key here. First we have to agree what thrashing is.
On my line there are three signals on a 1 in 75. Two of those are home signals where you get stopped now and again. The up inner home at Horsted is on a bit of a curve. On test my Inspector wanted me to ''Use the full potential of the locomotive'' to start six coaches with a U class. I'm sure that phrase goes back to his time on BR steam. In this case it meant full regulator and full gear. Not a thrash, just doing what was needed. Back in the day, inspectors wanted to see that Drivers were not scared of the big stuff or felt sorry for the little ones.
Similarly, shunting off the single line there with Bluebell once, it failed to start, so the answer was to get it blowing off hard, roll down the hill a bit, smack into full gear, reverse as it happens and open the regulator fully. At first nothing, then a groan and a slow movement northwards. That used 3/4 of a glass to get back into the platform. Not thrashing.
I think my definition would be something like 'working unnecessarily hard for the situation '. This is what I mean by showboating and it's not uncommon on heritage railways. This could mean blasting out of a level station with a lot of regulator and a big gear, then being slow to notch up. Unnecessary use of second valve or yanking the controller wide open on a diesel. Incidentally, I have never troubled second valve on a 9F.
When I passed for driving, I wanted to be the 'Boring middle'. Just going about my day, quietly, unobtrusively and developing my skill. It's for others to judge if I have achieved that.
Some as I say put on more of a show. They're the ones who people know and get on social media. Not for me.
Edit: I should have said 'three signals on an uphill gradient of 1 in 75'. There's anther three home signals downhill.

 

This is a really good thread and a big "Thank You" to the drivers and firemen for their contributions - it highlights the thinking and actions behind, what appears to be, a "simple" job...which actually requires so much skill and knowledge.