The Steam Ban around York

No they didn't but, ever since the return of mainline steam in the '70s, it has been the norm to have an inspector as part of the footplate crew. This has continued post-privatisation with EWS and now DBS.

 

I guess one of the first steps in deciding if an inspector is needed these days, and if so whether having one of the footplate crew acting in a dual capacity is an issue, would be identifying exactly what the purpose of having the inspector on the loco is in the first place?
They aren't routinely required on diesel and electric powered locomotives, so what's so special about a steam powered one that requires an inspector?

Oh course it's none of the business of anyone on this forum who is or isn't on a loco, or how a company conducts its business - not that it stops people rubber-necking on the forum whenever anything happens...

 

On a slightly different level, you take your car to a garage to have some work done on it, maybe involving brakes and/or steering, then either the mechanic or other employee takes it for a test run to see it's OK and sign the job off. A sort of FRT exam.
So who should do an FTR on a loco, who apart from the engineering team that have worked on it are actually sufficiently au fait with the loco to be qualified to do it?

Maybe somebody independent, as qualified as the engineering team, who can provide another set of eyes to the locos' ability to run mainline.

That does 2 things, it absolves the 2 parties of letting something out not in a fit state to run, or with known issues, you only have to look at early season runs, to see some locos, effectively being run in on the mainline, to the detriment of paying customers.

When my audi (and it is a bit special I will admit), goes in for service or warranty work, the technician who did the work does not test drive it to satisfy the job is done, his supervisor does it, that independent view is what mainline steam should move towards.

 

I don't agree with that. WCRC's customer's and potential customers will include a lot of people on this forum: I would have thought that the way the company conducts it affairs, and particular its safety performance, was very pertinent to this audience...

Tom

 

Taking this quote, and applying it to lets' say the aviation transport industry, would you still consider it non of the customers business how a business conducts it's business ?

If xyz air had aircraft causing issues on a runway i'm sure a few passengers would get edgy, especially if the airport later turned around and stopped them using their airport.
Now if the airline complained, and lost....

None of anyone's business .. it reminds me of the look on Gillian Taylforth's face in Jan 1994..when she lost... didnt stop anyone (inc the press having a field day afterwards).

coming back to topic.. the railway mags are bound to be covering it next month.

 

Whoops, I have it wrong - clearly all potential customers of an airline, or rail tour promoter, are suddenly self-declared instant experts on how the companies do/should operate, and from a position of remote superiority, and in the absence of any real facts, are thus in the perfect situation to pontificate and make abitary declarations on how the aforementioned companies both are currently running their business, and how they should conduct their business in future.

With obvious exceptions, in the majority cases the 'customer' of West Coast / DBS is the tour promoter (or other operator) who hires their services and sells train rides to the general public. The bodies who allocate licenses to train operating companies and those who interface with them on an operational basis are those in a position to request evidence of and assurances to their operating, maintenance and safety procedures. Oh, funnily enough, Network Rail as one of those bodies made such requests earlier this year, weren't happy with the response they received and responded as they saw fit. ....to the widespread condemnation of the armchair jockeys on internet forums! Lol.

Next time one of you lot heads to Brum New Street and demands of the ticket office to see the maintenance record and procedures for the DMU you've bought a ticket to ride upon, do let me know so I can ensure I'm not stuck behind you in the queue, but also so I can stand near and have a jolly good chuckle!

 

Thats exactly what I was wondering. Could someone explain what the TI's role is on a DBS operated trip? Does he have ultimate authority to tell the driver how to deal with a particular situation,or is he more of an "extra pair of eyes". Would most DBS drivers welcome having the TI on the footplate or would they rather get on with it on their own?

 

All that would be fine if NR were speaking from a position of strength as far as their own performance is concerned which of course they aren't if you look at the PPM figs and where most of the blame lies. The problems caused by the use of steam locos on the main line are almost negligible if you look at the overall picture and as a result I cant help thinking that NR are keeping a very close eye on WCR in particular and will pick on anything which is outside the strict application of the rules. Never mind that it results in large amounts of lost income and profits to private third parties. NR can hide behind their public multi billion £ funding.

 

The facts are there .. The URL has been up for days (unless your saying the facts uploaded onto the ADA website are false ? )
There's no maintenace records in there, that is if you read them before you posted.

 

Only if we can chuckle at your bleeding remains in the wreckage.....

 

So who do you think pays WCRCs wages? While it is true that technically they may have a contract with an intermediary promoter rather than directly with the passengers, it is the passengers who hold the purse strings. If those passengers lose confidence in WCRC's ability to deliver an acceptable standard of safety (whether that is a justifiable loss of confidence or not) then that is catastrophic for WCRC. So surely it is in WCRC's interest to maintain levels of confidence ... As for "facts" about how they run their operation: both the RAIB report into Winchfield and this ADA report are in the public domain, and available for any interested potential rail tour passenger to read.

Hiding behind some veil of secrecy or "we don't deal direct with the public, the promoter is our customer" is missing the point: if they are perceived not to be operating with adequate standards, that is potentially fatal for their business model.

Tom

 

The fact is we are all "interested parties" and if WCR goes down we will all be losers because of its near monopoly. It is vital therefore that anything which jeopardises steam on the mainline is dealt with maturely and responsibly. WCR is the custodian of many peoples hopes.

 

I have no idea whether this is true, but I was once told that the reason for the presence of a traction inspector on a steam loco on the mainline was simply due to the presence of an "owner's representative" on the footplate, who was there to advise the crew on any technicalities and foibles of that particular loco. As the owner's rep may not be a BR (as it was then) employee, the rules required that a traction inspector accompanied him (or her) - this would have been the case whether the loco be steam, diesel or electric.

(I have also heard a few stories about how much notice some BR footplate crews took of the advice given by the "amateur" owner's rep - but that's another story....)

 

Correspondence relating to one specific adjudication has been published, but that doesn't stop the self-important experts on the forum continuously passing comment on what West Coast is or isn't doing, should or should not be doing after every chuffing train movement the company does. The armchair elite will pick apart everything the company does without any reference to information or facts. The fact that the company isn't rushing to ask the opinion of and inform forumites of every aspect of their business immediately means they should automatically be critised without sparing a moment to consider than other train operating companies don't share their business decisions, procedures and plans with the world at large either.

...but of course trainspotters, and especially "steam" trainspotters, are all higher beings who know far better than anybody else.

If you're that type of person, then feel free.

I rarely travel by train these days, but in safety terms that's probably a high risk decision. I spent 3 years commuting daily by rail and experienced very little in the way of serious delay, although it wasn't unknown to get diverted due to problems on the system, limp into stations with poorly trains, be sat in the middle of nowhere with signalling issues etc. etc. Out on the rail network 'West Coast' are far from unique in things sometimes not quite going to plan.

These days I commute by car, statistically I suspect you'll find there are far greater numbers of collisions involving road traffic than involve trains, and especially than involve trains run by "West Coast Railways". So if you take delight at laughing at injuried/dead people in wreckage, then I dare say there's a far greater chance of you getting your kicks with me travelling by car.

Those who pay WCRC wages would be those companies who employ their services, whether those are rail tour promoters, other TOC who need to hire locos, privately owned loco owners who need vehicles moved on the national network.... and passengers who buy tickets from West Coast promoted railtours.

If any of those people are not happy with the service West Coast provides - either in terms of safety, reliability, number of people on the footplate, or anything else, then there are other companies offering similar services they could chose to use instead. If rail passengers aren't happy with tour promoters choosing West Coast as the operating company then they will stop buying tickets - but I'm not aware of that happening?

One thing is for sure, a group of duffle-coated train spotters on an internet forum spouting off won't change much - they can declare until they're blue in the face that things should be done in such-and-such a way, but in reality they're pissin' in the wind and deluded if they think anyone is listening to them!

Indeed, but certainly in respect of the latest ADA report that still doesn't actually reveal what (if any) procedures may or may not be in place within West Coast. The person who made the judgement said they didn't know either, they weren't in a position to mount an investigation and demand access to WCRC business practices, all they could do was reach a judgement based on the letters and correspondence presented before them - which certainly seems to show a reluctance on West Coast's part to divulge to Network Rail the information NR were requesting, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist - if WCRC were of the opinion that NR had no right to demand what they were, then it wouldn't be a surprise for them to refuse to comply. ....although you might think they could at least manage not to keep changing their minds about what they said every 5 minutes! Lol.

Since the adjudication nobody on this forum who have delighted in dripping on are aware what may or may not have taken place between WCRC and NR, and further forum demands and statements are as meaningless as other scrawlings on a toilet wall. Everything that needed to be stated was written in the adjudication.

I look forward to hearing of your success at demanding consultation and notification from all the other operating companies regarding their procedures, practices, future plans, investigations etc. After all, surely as carriers of coal for power stations, nuclear fuel, steel for industry and other freight upon which daily life depends I suspect everyone on the forum is much more concerned about the practices of these companies than that of a spot-hire company who is involved in occasional railtours for pleasure. ...or does the fact most people will never get to hear of the problems other companies face means nobody here really cares?


I understand Charing Cross station has now reopened following what was described as 'an explosion' resulting in a fire on board a South Eastern Trains service today. I guess we can expect all the forumites to pour over this, making suitable declarations of what happened, why and who is to blame and why from a similar position of ignorance to every time the same is dished out in WCRC's direction.

 

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Are you using an invisible font?

 

Yes

 

@I. Cooper
Your contempt is plain so why waste time on something you clearly despise?