the surviving unrestored Ffestiniog locos what should happen to them???

On the assumption that Linda has Welsh Pony's tender judging by that, where did Blanche's come from ?>

 

Would be lovely to see Welsh pony restored, princess and LT I think should probably remain as they are, static and 'interesting' examples of what has gone before.... I also think that in their respective display areas some sort of interpretation should be on hand, explaining what each of them is (ie, how LT came to being what we currently see etc.) as this is as important as just the loco itself. The impression I have been given of LT is that it is a collection of parts in close association that resemble a Fairlie, and would in no way be restorable viably? Likewise with princess, theres no great value to steaming it however making sure that the general public know the association between her, prince, welsh pony and palmerston may allow them to appreciate it better.
Dare I say it, having Palmerston or the rebuilt Welsh pony as roving ambassadors would be fantastic for the FR, but also for heritage railways in general... if the FR do not have a great deal of use for it for a while and are lacking a place to keep it would it not be a great thing to see either of them based for a time at the WHR(P), convenient, appropriate and maybe another way of helping to build a long lasting friendship!

Funny to see the 3 duchesses rearing their heads again, Probably best for C of B to stay where she is, make the most of Sutherland on this ticket and Hamilton when she next comes round for her turn. Maybe those who want to City of Birmingham badly enough and have deep enough pockets could pay for Sutherland to carry that identity for a few days....

Anyhow, that's my possibly badly received ramble for the ramblings for the night........

 

Blanche has a purpose built tender.

 

Why? City of Birmingham was never streamlined so wouldn't have ever been in such a condition.

 

I believe it was actually - I've heard that if you have a gander in the smokebox you can see the weld where the new bit was put in. Of course, you'd lose that little bit of history if she were restored to semi condition. I think she's good where she is, like Mallard. Let the others do the running.

 

I am happy to be proven wrong but was 46235 not one of the never streamlined ones or has my memory let me down?

 

theres an easy way to tell with duchesses if they were or wernt streamline look at the front of the running boards if they curve like on Sutherland it was built unstreamlined if there is no curve and a gap it was streamlined simple.
and to quote wikapedia:
6235 was originally built in 1939 at Crewe, and entered LMS stock in July 1939, one of the third batch (Lot No. 150). As built she was streamlined and was the first to be fitted with a double chimney as built (previous locomotives being built with single chimneys and later modified).
i rest my case

 

@guard_jamie seeing your views on the fr locos and birmingham based on them i presume that you wouldnt want green arrow returned to service?

 

I hope the Kerr Stuart (early diesel, works no. 4415 of 1928), another unrestored loco which once ran on the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland, will work again some day.

 

The trusty Ian Allan book shows 6220-29, 6235-48 as built streamlined.

 

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How much of Green Arrow is original from service days though ?, I already have a phot of one of the rods fitted in Pres that's stamped with the number of another V2.

Green Arrow can't be compared as she is the sole V2, left, City of Brum, Princess & LT all have operational "clones".

 

Thanks for correction. Serves me right for trusting my memory!

 

Due to exchange of parts during works overhauls this would have been normal during service days.

 

No, I'd be happy to see Green Arrow steam again, but as an NRM locomotive I would expect an overhaul sympathetic to original techniques and methods that did not overly threaten the fabric of the locomotive. I know that that is what it would receive were it to be overhauled again.

You see, Green Arrow has steamed in preservation, at least two full 10-years approx. to my knowledge (?) So the originality that there was on her withdrawal has already been lost, irretrievably. This is not a bad thing as other locomotives, such as 46235 serve the conservational purpose, Green Arrow could in theory once again fulfil the interpretative, operational purpose. I'd like to see it.

 

Ooh, it's time to play the fantasy "what shall we steam next game".

OK two questions:

1) Do you believe Stephenson's Rocket (the original, not the replica) should be restored back to operating condition? (Yes / No)
2) Do you believe Flying Scotsman should be restored back to operating condition? (Yes / No)

If (as I suspect most people would) you answer "No" to question 1 and "Yes" to question 2, then you are already accepting that there is a switchover at which the heritage interests are best represented by preserving what is left of the original fabric of a loco, rather than the equally valid point of allowing it to run so as to demonstrate the operating form. The only question is where do you draw that line? Personally, I put that line with "green Arrow" and Flying Scotsman on the "operating" side, but CoB, (and Lode Star, Gladstone and certainly Rocket) on the "preserve as is" side of the line.

I certainly think the argument for steaming CoB is very weak, on the grounds that there is very little to be gained by operating her that couldn't equally well be gained by steaming one of the other Duchesses, whereas there is an awful lot to be lost in terms of the patina of originality - and once gone, it is gone for ever. The argument saying that soon we will have no Duchesses on the mainline for a few years, so we must steam CoB is particularly weak - so what? Where is the sudden requirement that we have to have a Duchess running all the time? There has been no mid-19th century mainline express passenger engine in steam for probably 30 years or more (Stirling single, Hardwicke, Gladstone, LSWR T3 - I'd accept any of them) but it doesn't mean that suddenly it is imperative that they be bought back into steam, even though arguably it is a much greater gap in our comprehension and experience of steam.

Incidentally, there are three other possible combinations of answers to my little game:

No / No - the ultra conservationist answer, which probably won't find too much favour anywhere outside of a few ivory towers.
Yes / Yes - so you think machines can only be properly experienced by seeing them in action? Would be interesting to see what response you got from the Science Museum when you asked them to poor some lubricating oil on Harrison's clocks, get out the key and watch them tell the time.
Yes / No - keep taking the pills.

Tom

 

Princess should be nicely restored (static) in the condition as she was delivered and displayed in front of a period photo ( a large diorama in effect)

The remains of Taliesin should stay in the National Railway Museum and WP restored for static display somewhere.

 

how this as an idea for the unrestored fr locos they should be all cosmetically restored to as i service condition with all fittings and paintwork and they should be kept in a museum somewhere along the fr/whr which would be big enough to permenently house the 3 in this topic an another fr /whr locos awating overhauls this would have the benefits of keeping the fr engines in one place at the railway, keep them all out of the weather and preserved and provide undercover space for stored locomotives where people can see them instead of them being out of view near blenue. so as mounteneir is out of service you could show the locomotive development of the fr with princess the first, welsh pony and gti princess, LT a fairly and mounteneir a modern fr locomotive.
and to some others on this topic (you know who you are) rocket is a different loco to an i have previously talked about as to the point that there isnt much left of it for a start, it wouldn't be much use and there are replicas of it where as the other locos i have talked about all the important bits are there and could be used in everyday service. Just to point out i a not a simpleton who wants to steam every loco that has survived the cutter tourch i understand and know what it take to build and restore an engine to working order and i know it aint cheaper easy to do so, and i understand that an enthusiast would be interested in a loco weather its in 100 bits or going at 75 on the mainline but people find a working steam engine far more interesting than one not thats how preservation works people come for day out to a railway to see something running but museums have a purpose to to keep locos that are not inservise in the dry so they dont deteriorate. so please kindly dnt treat me as an idiot or rubbish my views as i haven't done that to yours i have either continued the, answered them, asked futher or have informed you of the correct answers.
thanks
Patrick

 

But to restore Princess to as built state would require scrapping *all* of the loco as she is, and building from scratch, perhaps wheels and rods may be able to be saved, but the rest is so fundamentally different from what was built by Geo. England and Co. that it would basically entail a virtually new loco. If you're going to that trouble, why bother with scrapping Princess (1946 variety), and call the new one Mountaineer (as the only Small England not to survive).

Welsh Pony's cosmetic restoration would involve almost as much work as restoring her to work, the tin worm she has is so bad, and so the argument goes that, despite her originality as she is, she really *really* needs *something* done, so it may as well go the little bit further, and give us a working Large England. Again, there may not be much of the loco as she stands now left, though as was pointed out the frames are sound and reuseable, and possibly the cylinders, wheels and motion as well, but if nothing is done, there'll be nothing left to preserve soon.

 

Patrick, far be it from me to rubbish your views, but you are responding to mine and other's views by simply repeating your own, not trying to explain what it is in your opinion that makes several engines viable projects to restore to working order as opposed to being kept on static display.

As Selsig states, there is not that much different between the original Rocket and Princess - both are utterly knackered. This has been responded to in Rocket's case with replicas as you note - so why not do the same with Princess?

 

Dear Guard_Jamie and all
In my original post i stated several points of view as per locomotive based on historical accounts and what i have seen on the locos, i will repeat them here in simple form.
there are 3 factors per locomotive:
1 is at actually possible to return the loco to service.
2 would i be Comersially viable for the FR in terms of usability.
3 historically if parts need replacing what is the historical importance of them.
First
Princess FR 2
It would be possible to return the loco to service as she was the last to be used by the old company.
Comersially she would have to be double headed for service but this would compliment Prince. Dependent on tests on castings, frames and boiler I think that the only the cab and tanks would need to be completely replaced with the boiler only requiring new internal parts i.e tube plates, tubes and inner firebox and possibly a new back head, chassis would need a through over hall with new tiers, axle boxes, bushes ect. This would achieve a running locomotive.
Historically she is number 1 in the fleet and is the last small England in as running condition but she is not the same loco delivered by G.England in the 1860's as she has new frames and new boiler since then and since the FR has designed its modification around appearance more than functionality as seen with DLG and ME as it wouldn't change as Prince was in the 80's so i think that she should be restore as not much would be lost historically and with super heating and better firing arrangement she could have the compromise of usability but retaing her historical integrity. But as many people wish for her to only be cosmetically restored that's what will happen in the near future.

Welsh Pony FR 6
She could be restore but only her frames and other small parts would remain.
She would be bigger and more powerful then Prince if fitter with super heating and improved firing arrangements and could be more useful to the company.
Historically she is unique so she is more important then Princess or LT to the FR so really Princess is is better candidate to restore on grounds of work and cost, but it would be nice to compare a large England and a small England for the first time since 1938.
LT
It would be possible to restore her but at a cost of money and original parts.
Shes the perfect loco for FR trains as has been proved by the running 3.
Historically she is the only fairly left in original condition as MofE and DLG are new and ME was butchered in previous rebuilds especially with the Hunslet boiler and her bogeys are not original neither is her boiler and her tanks may need replacing but her cab is restorable and if her carrying frame is good she could be restored to working order as a true ambasidor for the original Fairly's, as im sure a Fairly with a super heated wagon top boiler and piston valve bogeys would be a nice thing to see. So even though she was declared a wreck in the 70's careful restoration and conservation could achive something great.

On the topic of Rocket and Princess they are 2 different beings one was the prototype for all modern steam locomotives and the other was a working locomotive for the best part 80 years and more f Princess remains than that of Rocket.

If i am not clear please ask for me to explain further.

many thanks
Patrick