the surviving unrestored Ffestiniog locos what should happen to them???

Indeed it was normal, but I know this particular one was changed in pres as opposed to service.

 

There already is (effectively) a working replica of Princess, only difference is the nameplate reads "Palmerston" , Prince has probably evolved too much now to be compared to the other two surviving Small Englands.

Two questions Patrick

1) Where would you put such a building ?, Porthmadog probably won't have any spare space once the rebuilding is complete, Minfford yard serves as the PWay Depot and an example of an exchange yard with Standard Gauge, not sure what Glan y pwll is used for but I doubt the FR have it sitting unused, so very few spare sites at the moment.

2) How would you pay for it ?, Im pretty sure 99% of the FR/WHR's budget is already accounted to other more urgent needs (Staff wages, Loco & Rolling stock Maintenence/Overhaul, Fuel, property and PWay upkeep etc etc), so you'd need money presumably from an appeal or elsewhere, I've never seen an out of traffic Loco or one under overhaul sitting outside at Boston Lodge so presumably there's enough space to keep the Loco fleet undercover as is, certainly I've yet to see a phot of Welsh Pony or Mountaineer under a tarpaulin round the side.

 

Petrick, I understand your viewpoint, but put simply, the Ffestiniog does not need any more locomotives.

Livingston Thompson would be nowhere near as powerful as the three running Fairlies, simply because they have been rebuilt with new boilers, bogies etc. You suggest a new superheated wagon-top boiler and piston valve bogies. I reiterate that the superstructure is nowhere near as solid as it looks - it is, simply speaking, 110 or so years old, and had a period of outside storage in the 1970s and 80s, and, despite the cosmetic restoration in 1988 making it look pretty agin, a lot of what you see is thin platework with filler patching the pinholes within. Look at Merrdin Emrys, whose 1960s tanks were equally as worn out in 2005, and required replacing, and Earl of Merioneth, whose 1970s tanks are on their last legs, although well tended to to see them through. Simply speaking, all that would be salvageable from LT as she is in York would be the Boiler Cradle, and that is far too lossy to original material to countenance. This same discussion was had, within the FR, in the mid to late 1980s (about restoring LT to use as a working example of the Spooner outline Fairlie) and the result was that LT was cosmetically restored, and David Lloyd George was built. I doubt the heritage, historical and economical aruments have changed all that much in the meantime.

The lack of requirement for a 4th fairlie is shown by the amount of time David Lloyd George spends out of service currently. Yes, she's an expensive oil burner, but if the need were there, she'd be in use.

Again, you state that it would be simple to restore Princess as she was the last Old Company engine in 1946. Seriously, does 66 years out of service, some of it stared outside, and with many parts caniballised for Prince and Palmerston, count for nothing in restoration terms. Put simply, to return to service, Princess would require: A new boiler, new smokebox, new tank, new tender, new fittings and, if Palmerston is any benchmark, probably new wheels. Again, if you were to go to this amount of trouble to restore the loco as she stands, why not leave the nicely cosmetically restored bits together as an original locomotive, and make the frames, cylinders and motion new as well. At least then you'd have a brand new loco to run - you could even build it to an original outline.

Saying that, of course Welsh Pony requires many of the same parts as Princess does. However since she has spent so long *not* being looked after, all we can hope for the remaining original material is that it doesn't disintigrate fully before some form of restoration comes along. In order to return her to even a cosmetic state similar to Princess would require almost as much work as returning her to service, so we may as well go the extra mile, despite the loss of original material involved - what is left is merely evidence of 80 plus years of , if not abuse, a lack of care commesurate with the loco being withdrawn.

Again, though, the Ffestiniog does not need these locos in service. Palmerston is a lightly used, and fairly pampered, engine. Prince is more powerful, but not really powerful enough for the FR trains of today, and so again is lightly used when in ticket. With Linda, Blanche, Taliesin and Lyd around, the Englands are at best useful spare locos, and in truth, most of the time serve as little more than set dressing. However I do agree that Welsh Pony is better off as a working, albeit less than "original" locomotive, than as a pile of rust. Others may disagree with me.

John

 

The FR Red Service requires 2 double engines and an 8 car engine. The latter is normally the Lyd, as the Oil-fired Ladies are expensive to run. The Taliesin does the evening trains.

DLG is classed as spare loco for occasional use. As well as being oil fired, it's bogies are worn out and we need to keep them going for as long as possible. Boston Lodge is currently devoting much of its time to fabricating 2 new bogies, as we need a reliable 3rd Fairlie ASAP in case one of the others fails. When it's bogies are replaced, I suspect a way of converting DLG to coal will be found and it will be seen far more frequently.

At the moment we need more locos for the WHR far more than we need another England; it would be a 'nice to have', but by no means a priority. As others have stated, Princess and LT are far better off as museum pieces.

Incidentally, DLG's new bogies are rather expensive and society funded. If you like the Dave, the FRS would welcome a donation at through the website.

 

I believe Princess is soon to be removed from Spooners. Are there any plans to protect it from the elements, or will it end up like Welsh Pony?

 

Any news on NG/G16 109 that Pete Waterman bought? There appears to be no news about it recently....

 

I was wondering if a conversion to Coal was in the pipeline for DLG, seemed strange to have an in ticket loco sitting around that's capable of hauling anything that can be thrown at it, seems unlikely in future that Oil will become cheaper than Coal again, not that the latters cheap either.

 

DLG due in the erecting shop in September if Prince can be moved on in the next few weeks ( as a coal burner).

Bogies already in hand, so a ten year boiler job and conversion to coal a certainty. The bogies under DLG at the moment are better than the ones under The Earl, so the proposal is to swop them and then rebuild one of these as a spare, the other as a demo for the heritage project we dare not ask about, lets just hope.

That means next year (and until 2016 I think when ME is due) we should have three coal fired double engines.

Regards

Peter

 

"Any news on NG/G16 109 that Pete Waterman bought? There appears to be no news about it recently...."

You are not supposed to ask that question. AndrewT considers it very rude!

I was always amazed that WP was allowed to rot outside for as long as it did. Oddly, the one loco I would love to see reappear as a modern useful unit, would be a 'James Spooner 2' with open cab and marine bell!

 

I wonder what the (Fairlie bogie) "heritage project we dare not ask about" is too! I believe Andrew T is a big fan of Moel Tryfan, but I'm sure there is no connection.:dance:

I guess if Pete Waterman is having any difficulty with the restoration of 109 he may not wish to talk about it either, although any delay should not detract from his generosity in taking it on. The history of railway preservation is peppered with projects which took much longer to complete than originally intended, many of them very successful in the end.

 

Bet that would be popular in the Welsh weather :nono:

Im curious about that myself but can't work it out, Moel Tryfan would need a 6 wheeled bogie woulden't it ?, and obviously you'd need a second bogie if you were thinking about a double, so doesn't really fit either idea, very curious.

I have a suspicion, but I won't say incase im right and ruin someones suprise.

 

I was referring to 'Taith i'n Treftadaeth-Our heritage journey' project ( FRM P 841, nothing secret about it), except the outcome of the bid, I am just hoping for a successful outcome, but I have heard nothing yet, hence I dare not ask.

Regards

Peter

 

I had always presumed they kept a couple oil fired for days when there was a hire fire risk. Not that that seems likely with the last couple of years weather

 

I think the spark arrestors used now are such that Coal doesn't present an issue, I doubt the FR would use Coal if there was any risk given the highly wooded nature of certain stretches.