The Ultimate Livery Debate...

Which loco were you on ?
(I went to EG to SP on the 1.15pm with 847, had lunch at SP and took the 4pm back with 1638).. specifically the 4pm because of the stock.

It was too wet to risk even to unleash the camera, so my phone was the only record of the day, On leaving HK to EG was the outer home out of action ?

 

I was on 1638, so the 4.00pm departure. There was an issue with the advanced starter(*) at HK which meant it couldn't be pulled off; I have a hunch why but as I am not a signalling expert I won't comment. Suffice to say we had permission from the signalman to pass it at danger, hence the long whistle.

Tom

* The outer home is the first "stop" signal you get to approaching the station from Sheffield Park, at Three Arch Bridge. The advanced starter is the last stop signal you pass on leaving the station going towards East Grinstead, at Leamland Junction - that was the signal we were authorised to pass at danger.

 

Gotcha, I guess that explains the slight delay. I have a video approaching the signal, I took from the window and caught the slight slip / whistle as we passed the signal.

 

For me the big issue is not the colour but the lack of variety. I hate BR black (and to a slightly lesser extent green) because every other engine in the land is painted in that colour. It's just so unimaginative and DULL.

I've also never, ever understood the appeal of a dirty engine.

 

If you'd been spotting in the latter days of BR, you'd understand well enough.

 

Way to reopen the can of worms

In an ideal world I'd prefer a matching loco and train, be it a prairie and toplights in 1930's condition or a standard and maroon mk1's, I'll accept mismatched loco's as stock as that did sometimes happen and operationally for the railway concerned, it isn't always possible to produce a match depending on stock available.

Where I draw the line is at fictional liveries *coughred8fcough*, fair enough it's owners choice, but don't try and pass it off as preservation when it never happened, I'll make an exception for Thomas events as smokebox faces are easily removable and a few of the industrial tanks used would get nothing like the usage they do otherwise.

I don't think people are against the pre BR scene per say, but do it properly if your going to, a L&Y loco hauling blue and greys doesnt cut it.

Oh, and mr sarcastic has found his way onto my ignore list since the last livery debate, so save your breath.

 

I must admit I'd like to see a Silver/Grey A4 operational myself, the br era double chimney is such a slight asthetic adjustment I think you could get away with, doesn't stick out a mile like the A3 deflectors.

I know I'm contradicting myself slightly with no dedicated set for such a look, but at least it did happen.

 

I don't think people are against the pre BR scene per say, but do it properly if your going to, a L&Y loco hauling blue and greys doesnt cut it.
Totally agree with this I think Furness 20 looks great on some of the vintage stock its worked with but on 2 maroon mk1s does nothing for me. Know I've mentioned this before but Tornado in blue on a matching rake of carmine and cream really does it for me. I know for operational reasons we cant always have right engine right stock but when we do its great. Pic below not neccesarily steam era but is it an Exeter Barnstable local in the late '80's or is it Thuxton on the Mid Norfolk in April 2013?

 

Apologies for using a diesel phot in a steam debate but just think it illustrates my point.

 

I think preservation needs more 1980's liveries, in time today's enthusiasts will hark back to the 1985-1995 final decade of BR and its diesels much the same as the older generation today look back at 1958-1968.

Whilst mixed rake regional railways mark2's might not do much for many in here, in time it will...
Seeing M35070 returned to sealink livery would be nice, I think ELR has a CK that was in that colour scheme too.

 

But what colour toaster would you like?

 

I think if I had been there, then as you say I would understand the appeal. But, like an ever increasing number of enthusiasts, 1965 sounds nearly as long ago to me as 1935...
So for those of us with no nostalgic memories, the ubiquity of BR liveries is dull. And it seems strange to hark back to and always be evoking steam's dog days of decay and defeat rather than the glory days of 1910s, say, or 1930s.
Not to say I don't like BR green or lined black - both can be very handsome, and especially good when you can have several locos matching and the rolling stock. I even liked Lyd in BR black!
But other liveries are nice too, and lately BR just seems to have taken over. Thank goodness at least Lyd is now in Southern green...

 

Indeed trying to visualise prenationalisation is something that is really quite hard to do...

Whilst BR liveries were uniform, and mark 1's easy to associate with it, its easy for everyone to put a "black 5" or just about anything else with a BR logo, just about anywhere in the UK, close your eyes and imagine its the right loco on the right stock in a location that's believe able...


But out 4771 with LNER teaks on the GWML and it'll not pass muster, even if it'd look fantastic.

Seeing 1638 with its Olive green stock all uniform and correct last week was a perfect recreation...on a southern line

The NYMR has its teaks, but not much to go with them accurately, similarly Severn Valley with its LMS set

Imagine if East lancs borrowed keighley's suburban coaches and 42073...

The right combos can be put together, but it's the stock that does it.

 

Theres a few things that make it all worthwhile for me.

1. The engine in question. The livery might not be accurate for the area, or time of the engine (I like 2005 in LNER apple green due to the tour that confirmed my interest in railways back in 1993), so 62005 is a favourite machine. So to 63395, in BR black, but seeing something like Blue Peter back would be great. For me it needs to be in Brunwick, Late crest. The engine choice is what gets you interested first.
2. Where? Is it on the mainline or not. Mainline runs sometimes are not quick. Slogging uphill might sound good, but if your in the stock, you like the idea of the engine being worked, or the speed when going fast. On a line at 25mph, trash is often bad for the engine, but having a nice run means it can be just as enjoyable. The other part of location - is it accurate. An S15 in Southern green looks wrong. Its a fine machine for down south but looks out of place up north. Id gladly have a standard in exhange, as those designs by being standard where seen everywhere more or less. Even if some where not, a standard engine could pass for being more realistic alongside your grouping or pregrouping engines.
3. Are you there to film or photograph it. You want to see the engine itself. You want to get a photo thats of the day or something that can be partly a step back in time. How much this matters bares down on whether its authentic or not. Galatea shows that something today can look good but be a new chapter of an engines working life. Otherwise you want an engine to be in a period livery and that means accuracy. Even the number it carries factors in here as for some they have changed. The number matches the period and the paint you want to see it in. If your after accuracy as well.. where is it running, what day, in what weather, with what stock. Does the picture make it become everything you want, as the engine and what colour it is are the main reason for wanting the surroundings to be so near perfect.
4. Liveries the class carried. Most still go for a BR machine appearance, so that theres some easy comparrison in paint to other engines from other companies and networks.

As a result after all these you get your answer as to how much paint matters. Its a factor, but theres other reasons why it matters, but why its only a part too.

 

The right combos can be put together, but it's the stock that does it.
Very well put couldn't agree more.

 

A lot of people assume that the fascination with BR liveries end with the generation who saw them originally in the 50's/60's. I'm 1991 born, so I've been nowhere near the days of steam. Yet give me a BR Black 5 on a set of maroon Mk1's (although would prefer Blood&Cust) over the Highland Mainline, and I'm there! Put the K4 back in to apply green, and run the same tour with the same stock, I'd still be out for it, but maybe not as happy with the results.

For me, if I'm photographing, it's about acheiving something that would be realistic in steam days. A GWR engine on the head of LMS stock at SVR? The explanation can be 'Cross Country Service'. Put 'Coppernob' on two Mk1's in blue grey, it's a lot harder to explain (maybe Coppernob in steam is enough to explain!).
Put me inside the carriages, I wouldn't give a damn about the combinations as much. Would still prefer the right period feel, Caley 419 up front with the two Caley coaches at Bo'ness sums it up exactly. But it's not a requirement to get me excited, as the sounds do that for me!

I think an explanation for the increase in BR liveries may be more related to affiliated rolling stock than anything else. We are starting to see an increase in the trend of overhauling PRE-grouping and Grouping carriages as the cost and difficulties to source parts for Mk1 overhauls become just as difficult as their predecessors. If it costs £0.5m to overhaul an Mk1, or only just an extra £50k on top of that number to overhaul a Gresley Teak or Great Western Collett Coach, what are you going to choose? The latter will win as railways aim to bring back that truly heritage feel with wooden bodied stock, and there would be outcry if the teaks at SVR all received a maroon paint job!
So perhaps our chance to photograph prototypical formations of BR liveries is slowly decreasing, maybe not drastically but photo charter organisers may have foreseen then hence the encouragement to to 'Get it now while you can', because in 20/25 years it may have all changed and if an engine is in BR, it may not match the stock....

 

When it comes to mainline tours, I tend to keep livery reservations to one side and just enjoy it for what it is- an unusual and pleasant day out behind steam, especially as it is now a lottery as to whether you get the booked locomotive (trying to get 34067 this year to clear it for 1,000 miles has been a pig for obvious reasons- I'm still waiting).

However, if I was guided purely by my livery preference, it would be BR late crest every time, even though I was born a fair length of time after the demise of steam. I just think BR green or black looks smart on any locomotive, with maybe a bit of blue for variety, and makes for a good 'fleet' feel. I wouldn't go down the road of BR crimson due to the fact that I believe that none of the surviving Stanier pacifics carried that livery. But once again, I don't let my personal preference get in the way of a day out.

 

Just to throw a curveball in there havent the Patriot group suggested (4)5551 could wear BR Maroon at some point?! Would that count as authentic?! ( ducks for cover)

 

Surely any steam loco running in 2014 at all is "inauthentic"? Especially on the mainline which looks less and less like the mainline of the steam era.
Steam is only a game, chaps!

 

There was a Leicester - Swindon working back in LNER days and that took an LNER loco on teak stock to Swindon. So apple green on teak on the GWML would be authentic. At one stage it was a booked B17 turn but I suppose it's possible that a V2 may have stood in at times.