If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

The Vale of Rheidol Railway - News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by ValeOfRheidol, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Just a passing thought, but isn't D&M's fine reputation as the leading UK manufacturer of injectors a better memorial to one of the steam age's stalwart companies? I can't help thinking of the differing fates of the original VoR locos and the W&L's pair. Surely, had the design been sound, Swindon would've found it way cheaper to actually do what they told their board they'd done with No.2/1213, rather than embark on the last totally new pre-heritage-era design for a public NG line in these islands? That said, if there's the interest in such a project ..... well, stranger things have happened! :)

    For my part, I'd love to see a recreated No.3 Rheidol. TBH, I'm not too sure how useful a 2-4-0t would actually be to today's VoR (most old photos show it piloting a 2-6-2t or hauling a couple of carriages, a brake van and the odd open wagon), but just think of the endless fun we'd all have arguing the toss over dumb buffers, spark arresting chimney, cab style .... and that's before the inevitable barney over whether cast brass '1198' numberplates can justifiably be worn. C'mon ..... admit it ..... that's just gotta knock a straight livery battle into a cocked bat!

    On the subject of recreating lost carriages, looking at old images, the original 'very open indeed' carriages look like jolly good fun, plus coming in both 4w and bogie flavours.

    This paragraph is merely me thinking out loud. Under both the old company and the GW, the VoR employed bespoke stock well suited to the line's needs, with both locos and carriages. While I'd love to see some recreated 'original' carriages, the light and airy aspect of their Swindon designed successors has to be applauded (as does the current management's welcome decision to add cushions .... those 3rd class seat backs were not comfortable!). Consider what untying the hands of the VoR's (proven) management, by adopting that sort of brief to meet future requirements, might mean in practice.
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  2. PoleStar

    PoleStar New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    42
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Midlands
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
     
  3. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    which would point towards them not retaining 1212 as a fourth engine, as suggested previously
     
  4. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Do you think they would get around Veltom's curve and through Quarry cutting? Asking, not suggesting otherwise
     
  5. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    That tin got decidedly bigger... :D
     
  6. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    upload_2020-1-1_14-7-19.jpeg

    Have you seen this? Bangladesh Railway museum. 2' 6'' gauge also, close to a twin in many respects. I have the feeling the railway has a lifetime's work of restoration already, but one can dream... :)

    Personally, i would love to see some of the original open vehicles ie flat wagons with benches placed on them and protected by a wire barrier about ankle height. I somehow doubt the HSE would approve as runners though, even though they are historically accurate.
    We all have dreams, but as none of us are squillionaires, most of the dreams remain just that!
     
  7. PoleStar

    PoleStar New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    42
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Midlands
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think the situation was that a fourth engine was not required when winter services ceased. 1212 was the oldest, and in spite of its recent overhaul would have been the least valuable in accounting terms.
     
  8. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    1,225
    Green's history (IIRC) suggests that 1212 may never have run at all after its final overhaul. Probably the GWR management of the time were a little over-optimistic about potential traffic levels on the line; the axing of the winter services was probably, to steal a phrase from President Trump*, merely 'a recognition of reality'.

    *For the avoidance of doubt, I wish to make clear that borrowing phrases from President Trump in no way implies agreement with his opinions, statements or political policies!
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  9. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Probably the infuence of James Szlumper who was involved in both railways?
    The new GWR locos (in photos alongside Palmerston) were much larger, so GWR must have thought the new more powerful locos suited the line better?
    If a new replica of 1212 was made it could gain from the design of Lyd, but may not have the power needed.

    The NG13 would have the power needed for a backup loco.
    http://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/arti...om Switzerland&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2017
    but how long will it stay on long term loan, or could the owner move it to another railway?.
    In the longterm rather than an expensive new build 1212 loco, might be more cost effective to restore the NG15 no121 from the Rampton collection which will be based at the VoR as a back up loco?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  10. CymruGarratt

    CymruGarratt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    13
    Or indeed 146 which is also in the collection (120 is privately owned I gather)
    C
     
  11. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Anything up to and over 10500 ib tractive effort would be able to back-up. Garrats are way over that. Without knowing the cost for restoration, it's all just speculation really and with dozens of engines already needing restoration and no museum established just yet, why go and build another engine?

    I must admit, I thought that another Szlumper was mainly involved in the L&B, as well as James who had more than a few irons in the fire. This other one was more involved in the loco design??? I'm sure it's in CC Green - will have a look
     
    MuzTrem likes this.
  12. Maldwyn

    Maldwyn New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    67
    Gender:
    Male
    Probably could be lower than 10,500 lb for a back up engine but it’s unlikely that many locos would match the GWR locos. Mountaineer I think took a 5 carriage train up but struggled with 6 and festpedia rates it at 6,200 lb. the D&M tanks had a lower tractive effort than their modern counterparts and took similar train lengths (but not quite - hence the double heading with Rheidol). In the 70’s when the line was almost sold several loco types were identified before the two German locomotives were brought over (which were the next sold back across the continent when the plans failed) The issue was not just the very important tractive effort but suitability for the line with running along the flats being considered as well as the mountain climb in the later stages. Interesting that at least four types considered are in the Rampton / VoR collections.
    On another note, I read somewhere that mid 1920’s the siding at Rhiwfron was reinstated for mine traffic which may have suggested additional freight traffic. If the new locos were built in 1923 and 1924 this may be why it was though 1212 was needed to be rebuilt in 1925. Assuming it wasn’t used it was probably why it was sent to Swindon in 1933 and stuck on the sales list for two years. Alternatively it may have been to further hide the fact that 1213 was a new engine- if only one was to be rebuilt a detailed assessment may have been needed to identify which one was suitable; something that may have flagged up that neither would have needed such vast sums to be spent to pay for a complete new loco. I don’t think we will ever know why these decisions were made
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    Bluenosejohn and MuzTrem like this.
  13. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Maybe Peter Johnson could shed some light on it when his book comes out?
     
  14. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Although in the biography Peter Rampton did not like some attitudes of people on his rare open days, will be good that his collection will on public display in 2020.
    There seems to be increasingly good co-operation between trusts/museums/workshops and private owners to get rolling stock in good working order (which also provides some jobs for young people).

    Seems one of the common issues is which loco should be renovated next (historical importance vs public likes vs usefulness on rostras/driving experices) and getting funds?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    Wenlock likes this.
  15. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    That's an interesting thought about Rhiwfron, but with no road access, the only way freight got to it was via an aerial ropeway from the valley bottom, at the base of the Cwmrheidol/Ystumtuen mine, This closed in 1925 and the ropeway abandoned a year later, so I would say the siding was not reinstated as such. Green quotes 1212 having accumulated 15k miles between overhaul in 1923 and 1925 and implies the engine was swindonised rather than rebuilt. She was then a spare engine for three brand new locos who were doing the job anyway and spent 7 years 'languishing in the back of the long shed'. Shame she didnt end up like Russell and manage to escape the torch, but there we go.
     
  16. talerddig14

    talerddig14 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    James Szlumper, employed his half brother, William, to design both the L&B and the D&M locos. Green quotes the L&B's as underpowered and in need of a pilot for more than 4 coaches plus van. Avonside quoted lowest for the Rheidol engines, but D&M had lots of Aberystwyth links - Metcalfe was involved in iron foundry work in the town and Davies 'the Ocean' had worked with Szlumper on the Manchester & Milford (as well as building most of the Cambrian line. The D&M manager looked at Szlumpers drawings and visited both the L&B and the Ffestiniog, making them adjust the design to something fit for purpose, gaining an extra 500 odd lbs of tractive effort

    The current locos can take 7 full coaches up the line, I would hazard a guess that a fit and healthy D&M would only do 5. Given the growth of tourism and the promotion of Aber by the GWR as a resort, I would see the demand for heavier trains being the reason for stronger locos

    I would assume there is a loan deal with a contract, but the owner is the owner, so surely could move it. However, given the hassle getting it into the country and the town. Would he really want to in a hurry?
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    How much of the GW decision to replace the original locos was down to the design's performance and how much to post WWI condition? W.J.K. Davies' history of the VoR certainly wasn't overly enthusiastic about the Cambrian Rlys stewardship of the line. One particular photo sticks in my mind, with it's caption reading "...... photographed in 1922, after the Cambrian had done their worst". I've no idea whether his view of the CR management is fair comment.

    Certainly, with the advent of the Collett locos and the commercial failure of the harbour branch, gainful employment for No.3 Rheidol had gone, which was a great pity in my books, but my feeling remains that Swindon would scarcely have committed so much to replacing the original locos had the design been 'salvageable'. Just look at the more usual practice of implementing actual rebuilds, as applied to locos inherited from other lines such as the W&L, CM&DP and 'the Valleys' lines.
     
  18. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    Given the owners connections with the Rhiedol I doubt it would go anywhere else any time soon.

    Tim
     
  19. Maldwyn

    Maldwyn New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    67
    Gender:
    Male
    Slight correction to my earlier post. The original Rhiwfron siding was lifted around 1913. It was then relaid circa 1919 (and removed for a final time as late as 1955). The rope way was actually adapted at the time of the siding reinstatement to export larch pit props. The rope way did indeed stop working circa 1926. The mine on the opposite side of Rhiwfron was sold in 1922 and was worked by the new owners until 1938.
    I am still searching for the reason to justify the expense of maintaining 1212; I can’t help myself! Irrespective of the quality of the locos in their possession, the Cambrian hired Palmerston in 1915 because CC Green states their three engines could not cope with the holiday traffic and wartime timber traffic. Palmerston was then borrowed again in 1921 and 1922. The Ffestiniog refused the request in 1923. If the GWR was looking at this branch line with overly optimistic eyes, all things considered would suggest a fourth engine would be a sound choice (possibly not thinking about how good the new versions were going to be).
    CC Green states that the (nearly new) D&M engines could always handle six or even seven coach trains. There does not appear to be any photos or postcards in existence to demonstrate this; the maximum seems to be five without double heading (but even the later seems to be taken towards the later part of the locos life). Even with five plus brake van I would suggest this might be equivalent to a six or seven coach train. Although marginally taller the GWR coaches were built with steel under frames and galvanised sheeting - a loser weight when compared to the earlier examples which were oak frames with flitchplates and pine clad.
    (Mine dates taken from “Rich mountains of lead” published by the VoR (another good example of the railway trying to branch out commercially)).
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Just a couple of thoughts on the timing of 1212's demise ....

    Until 1930 (IIRC), the VoR was a year-round operation, providing both passenger and freight services. Thus, with no 'closed season' and allowing for one loco under repair (or boiler washout) at any time, until the point where it became a 'summer only tourist operation', a total of three locos would've been cutting it fine in the event of mechanical woes.

    Presumably, the VoR was no more immune than any other line to the effects of the economic depression following the 1929 crash. From all accounts, until the BR(W) publicity drive in the mid-1950s, the line remained a fairly quiet backwater ..... and following loss of loops in the 1960s, rather reverted to that status.

    My own experience of the VoR in the early 1970s was of a line surviving on a wing and a prayer, courtesy of some very committed staff. So overgrown was lineside vegetation that many of the incredible vistas were invisible as the train wound it's (by then, somewhat asthmatic) way up Cwm Rheidol. From what I've seen of recent developments, the current team have improved every aspect of this highly scenic line out of all recognition .... and more power to them!
     

Share This Page