Timetabled goods trains on the Isle of Wight

(Dons flak jacket): What you need is a P class!

Tom

 

If I stand in the centre of a Terrier I can't see out properly (in whatever direction of travel), so have to position myself inside with bent knees or stand with one foot in the cab and one out to feel comfortable and get a good view - depending on the weather!

Victorians were generally shorter than us so the cab was probably suited to the majority of footplate staff at that time. As Andy knows, I am a good few inches over six foot.

 

No, just a slightly taller cab on a Terrier!

 

Naughty naughty! You will need one made out of boiler plate if you continue to deviate from the thread quite like this (or any other non-inflammable one if a fire throwing P is at the head of the train) Memo, investigate a Lempor blastpipe and associated spark arrestor.

P.H.

 

No...what you really need is an Ivatt tank!

BTW I can think of another std gauge line that has been running timetabled freight trains for over 5 yrs. I would not claim it was a "museum" line though. None of us though have yet cracked running goods trains properly, by which I mean shunting at intermediate stations and showing what goods traffic really meant. Trundling rakes of goods wagons end to end is better than nothing, but I do not think anyone has yet demonstrated very clearly the skills of operation and planning of a goods train, nor set them in context properly to explain just how important they were. After all most branchlines would not have been built without the goods traffic, and many remained open to goods after the passengers had got the bus. I am not critical of anyone's efforts, and I don't have an answer about HOW to do it, but I feel we are collectively missing something at present.

 

It's a nice idea, but there are two immediate practical problems.

The first: how many stations at preserved railways still have somethin akin to their original track layout (in terms of disposition of sidings, dock, goods shed etc)? Not many. Of those, how many are sufficiently free of stored rolling stock that there is actually space to shunt? Even fewer. How many lines are then in the fortunate position that they can replicate that happy state of affairs at every station, or at least a significant number? None, I'd have thought.

The second problem is that goods trains in themselves are unremunerative, so the likely time to run them is during galas, aka enthusiast events. But in practical terms, most lines are also maxing out line capacity and train frequency at that time. So a leisurely half hour or so of shunting blocking the line at each station throughout the day may be entirely prototypical for the Much Meddling and Little Snoring branch ca. 1925 when passenger numbers were a handful each day, but rather less practical for the MM&LS Railway Preservation Society during a gala in which a thousand or more people are basically trying to ride the trains.

Which I think explains why, for those lines that do even try to recreate goods trains, they tend to be either for photographic charter purposes, or end-to-end affairs (ideally at least swapping ends with the brake van) or else, where shunting is attempted, it is at the few stations where shunting can occur entirely independent of the running line - for example, Washford or Dunster on the WSR.

Just another of those areas where the ideals of being a living museum come into direct conflict with the need to run a remunerative service! And of course, full power to those lines that, notwithstanding the above, nonetheless attempt to give some feel for the days of the loose-coupled goods train.

Tom

 

Sorry, recent events "across the water" have overtaken these points. Also there is no need or excuse to run a 9F on a few loose coupled wagons with attendent expense. Big engines are habit forming; kick the habit!

PH

 

I did say I didn't have an answer, but that should stop us trying to come up with one. Very very few if any railways are currently able to perform as true museums, and one of our favourites Paul is (to judge from the latest journal) quite a big sinner as well as having some virtues (Am thinking about the scrapping of a locomotive and the removal of certain bits of track amongst other things - in recent history has also been the reduction in the height of the bank and the straightening of the reverse curves - practical no doubt, but destructive of the original fabric and character).

I think that that is not only a shame, but a potential threat for the future (that more effort is not put into goods train operations). It is a good job that the charities commission do not currently focus overly on the educative value of the activities of some educational charities. We need to try harder. Yes, there are issues about remuneration, and yes there are practical issues, but those are excuses. We can do better. We should.

 

I was at Chatham Dockyard yesterday. they ran a demonstration freight train, but it was disappointing to me and (I suspect) frustrating to those running it.

Fixed formation - Planet loco, 5 trucks, Peckett loco. Slow walking pace with yellow suited people escorting all 4 corners. They made 3 or 4 trips, although they did detach the Planet for the return runs with the Peckett leading.

Advantage over IWSR - entirely visible to the paying public
Disadvantage compared with IWSR - no pace or apparent point.

Still well done to them for trying, it's quite hard to see how they could do better given the constraints of the site.

Back to the Isle of Wight. I do wonder if the goods trains might be better (mainly) confined to the Wootton - Havenstreet sector as this shorter segment is not tightly timed and might allow time for wagons to be attached/detached at Havenstreet to/from the headshunt. Alternatively do this on the up journey during the wait for the passenger to return from Smallbrook if the layover could be taken in the down platform.

 

can you have the goods waiting in the loop at Small brook so that when the passenger service arrives the goods can then depart, or is it strictly 1 engine in section? i only ask because of the shunting needed to run round, pick up the brake van, drop that off in the loop then collect the wagons, shunt them onto the brake van is hardly an easy operation, and must have delayed the service, unless you were running the goods in one of the passinger slots . you really need somewhere where you can shunt ,attach, remove stock without getting in the way of the timetabled services.

 

Simon puts it well but looked at from the point of view of the utter purist I suspect only the Vale of Rheidol produces anything like a railway of the "pre-preservation" era.

I have no objection to things being altered to cope with changing needs and safety requirements or, indeed, machinery being junked if it is unlikely to be used ever again and just represents untidiness and money tied up in scrap. Branch lines operated by oversized locomotives hauling shortish trains of corridor stock impress me as being utterly inauthentic though, especially when the organisation does have the means to do better.

However I am not sure whether we need to go overboard in re-marshalling goods trains mid route. Marshalling loose coupled freight stock could be a trifle hazardous at times and just running the brake van round at termini gives a fair idea of what was involved.

P.H.

 

The section is worked as one engine in steam and as Smallbrook as no road access or even access by foot it would be rather difficult to return the token to Havenstreet. Electric token working would of course allow that system to work. I believe that the Havenstreet to Wootton section will go over to electric token sometime in the future.

The possibility of extending into Ryde St Johns may create more flexibility, especially if the loop at Ashey is reinstated .

 

The fact that the IoSWR is running a regular goods trains doesn't mean it isn't unremunerative! No actual goods are being moved, and presumably takings are being monitored to see if extra people visit to see the demonstration. I believe other Railways have run scheduled goods trains in the past and may still do so but largely have, as far as I know, ceased.

Don't get me wrong - many years ago, I seem to recall I tabled a proposal to run both scheduled goods and local passenger services, partly to provide an extra attraction (and additional services for the passenger), partly to use historic rolling stock otherwise underused but also in no small part to assist with training opportunities for footplate and train crew. The proposal was not met with great enthusiasm, one question being "where will we get the crews for them from?" and no such trains were operated.

So, great news that the I0SWR feel in a position to run these trains and full power to their elbow, but the real test will be is they continue running for for several years.

Sorry to be a dampener!

Steven

 

A test run today for two more wagons for the goods train, also a test run for Calbourne.

The wagons will require the completion of all their paperwork (such joy!)


https://www.flickr.com/photos/98184884@N06/13970173171/in/contacts/

Not my photo.

 

A question for future running - given that it appears that the 2 Terriers were in operation on the last running day; will the future freight running days be operated with the 2 Terriers as these would seriously encourage me to make a visit to the area - including the IoWSR. I accept that locos are operated "subject to availability" but could I plan a visit to see both examples working rather be on the shed or in the workshops ?

 

The next occasion that both Terriers should be running is the Gala weekend of 24-26th May. At present both Terriers are the allocated goods train locos.

The timetabled goods train days may become a victim of there own success in that the passenger train weight could end up being above the allowed max for a Terrier. I do know that if at all possible an Island engine will be allocated to the goods train.

P.S. Calbourne is the rostered loco for the next week or so.

 

Thank you for your response; sadly it's the pair of Terriers at work that is the main attraction; whilst not anti W24 I managed to assemble enough images from a photo charter session that encourages me to re-visit the line and the Terriers would be sufficient to determine when.

 

hi andrew,
thank you for your very interesting post about driving W8 FRESHWATER. i wasnt aware of a pedal re the brake system and cant see it in detailed pics i have of W8's cab.
cheers,
julian

 

It is the standard release valve (all fitted vehs should have one), not a special fitting, positioned at the front left of the footplate floor. W11's release valve (and w24's) are located on the cabside. I was told by a now sadly departed ex BR driver that the IOW E1s also had their release valves on the floor.

The valves are normally only used when running light engine to get the brake off quickly; the engine brakes can be rather sharp, so a quick release can avoid unintentional halts when shunting, buffering up etc. Used simultaneously as selecting a full release at the DBV otherwise the aux reservoir won't be recharged and there will be a lack of brake power when making the next application.

 

Any news on progress with the Ivatt tank ?