Tin Bath Feb 14th 2016

Agreed. But most of the planning and marketing could be done in advance with a "Tickets on Sale" date added. It's what the scheduled services do. In many respects it is what VT are doing now pending the WCRC outcome.

 

Agreed ... see post above.

 

I see on RTT that there is an LE move from Preston Platform 4C to Bolton Platform 3, and that the ECS from Preston does indeed seem to be diesel-hauled on the basis that its being timed for 95mph. Despite already-stated suspicions, I guess we cannot be certain what's going on until the tickets arrive, and even then, not absolutely certain until the day itself.

What I am surprised about is that there won't be T&T diesel from Bolton, which could have precluded the need for the circuit through Altrincham in the evening. The next thing we need to look out for is whether the tour will change again to reflect this in the next week. However, all this presupposes that the LE from Preston is indeed going to be the diesel that came off the back in the morning, which has its compensations. At the very least, it suggests a clean steam leg.

 

Slick it may be, and it does increase the chance of clean steam, but it still boils down to a third of the potential 237 steam miles (ie. 72 miles) being lost if no change is forthcoming. As it looks to be an operational issue, I'd say the chances of change may well be 60-40 against. I hope to be pleasantly surprised before or on the day, but am also managing my expectations.

 

Quite. I think I'll take in a metaphorical deep draw of breath and move on, as this was bound to happen sometime- I guess I've been pretty lucky up until now in terms of getting the majority of the routes I wanted to do by steam. In any case, I'd rather not gain too much of a reputation as a whinger!

 

It would be great that RTC dream and that WCRC apply some pragmatism if RTC did not persist with selling dreams long after the point when the dream had turned into a fantasy.

 

Many want variety, particularly on the motive power. The better informed accept that with very old locos the risk of them failing at the last minute is there. Others atre looking for a route, but that can be changed if NR have engineering work planned or the change in motive power means the route is unsuitable. Both have occurred with The Tin Bath.

Keeping doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is madness. There needs to be a review of how tours are planned and then marketed. Rather than selling tickets many months in advance, it would be wiser to plan the route, confirm the motive power suited to that route, agree in principle with NR and produce advance marketing. Tickets would then go on sale when NR was able to confirm the route was open as with other TOCs - usually 12 weeks from travel. That would mean that tickets could be sold nearly three months before the tour with a degree of certainty that the route was clear and the loco booked and confirmed. Good tours sell out quickly. This is a marginal change with potential for big gains in PR and sustainability. Of course last minute issues on line problems and loco faults will always be present. Extreme examples are Dawlish and Lamington.

In some respects, VT are trialling this process. They have published their plans but until WCRC issues are clearer will not sell tickets. These are really good tours and I am certain sales will flood in when the books open. Maybe others can watch and learn?

 

VT is a different outfit that has the facilities to establish precisely what can and can't be done with its own fleet, and has a series of known itineraries when a 'visitor' is used. As such there's better scope for joined-up thinking at the planning stage.

RTC and everyone else who don't have this luxury have to wait in line and hope for the best from WCRC and the consent of the loco owner, so comparing the two is like comparing Yamato with Bismarck. At the end of the day, the whole holiday business is built on promises, albeit with a more defined outcome.

As the TB timings suggest, the possibility does exist to do the route in its entirety by steam, provided there's a coaling break somewhere en-route, and ideally an extra water stop for insurance purposes.

The 12 week deadline might or might not work, but as some trains struggle to fill after six months, this is actually an equally risky proposition that has the potential to disappoint someone.

The only reason I've stuck my head above the parapet on this one is because the route taken by tours is usually the safer bet within the overall package. I did, however, say I'd move on...

 

I almost entirely agree with you but this has got absolutely nothing to do with my point to which you are assumedly replying.

 

This will be the first steam hauled train to travel on the new double track section through Darwen. Last summer NR relayed the Bolton bound track for approx 1 mile either side of Darwen station. This is to facilitate a twice an hour service to and from Man Vic (to be introduced later this year?). The line is now double past the site of the old Spring Vale station becoming single again two or three hundred metres to the south as the line enters the cutting on the approach to Sough Tunnel.

The train is shown as having a booked stop in Darwen to cross with a Blackburn bound unit, the drivers are usually canny enough to avoid a stop (if possible) - a restart from a stop at the southern end of the double section would be interesting.

 

On balance I disagree. I think the effect of that would be to put RTC in a box, unable to market the one-offs with any confidence of delivery to spec. Consider what has happened with the Tin Bath in the last couple of years --- route not available both Penistone and Copy Pit ; locos not available for route ( Riley 5s otherwise engaged) . Actually I think if you want to run something unusual on an STP path you probably have Hobson's Choice ie something like the status quo or it won't happen. I reckon most people will say that provided it runs with clean steam on the current programme it is still a really good tour and the vast majority of punters will be happy--especially if it's a nice day like last year.

 

Yes. A cracking route all told. I've just been picky...

 

You just made my argument for me.

The route is not available. The locos are not available or even booked elsewhere? YET, an offer is made to buy a product that the supplier is only "hoping" will happen. The 12 week track access process does not put anyone in a box. Tour operators can still market their intention. "We will run the Tin Bath on X date using Y route with Z locos subject to availability. Tickets will go on sale 12 weeks before the tour when all aspects will have been confirmed." Of course last minutes problems with track and locos has to be expected as we cannot foresee urgent engineering or loco failure.

12 weeks is the better part of three months. More than enough time to sell tickets.

 

I think my point is that the majority of happenstance events happen within the 12 weeks. NR overruns at Copy Pit, Rileys need to maintain their 5s ready for the Jacobite with consequences for the route, weather events like drought and flood happen, locos fail their FTR and so on. I'm not sure how much uncertainty you would actually remove by restricting the sale period to 12 weeks.

In a way it's great news that FS has sold out just about every trip in 2016 but that is a bit of an exceptional case. I suspect RTC have a cut off date in their heads when they need to know if a trip is marketable so they can say to the loco owner and TOC--sorry it's off, or yes it's on and can we confirm five firsts and four standard please.

Considering the trips up to Blyth and Boulby and the Welsh Mountaineer as examples, these are trips which have run before, the paths existed, the risks are known (will they get up the hill), RTC need to ask themselves the right questions about whether the ducks have a good chance of being in a row this time around (which may need conversations to be had with the TOC, the loco owners and NR). Probably this is what happens.

My beef is a little bit different in that occasionally trips are proposed which one suspects are aspirational in nature with not much chance of materialising as proposed. That reduces confidence. Also I wish someone would get a grip on the website and make sure what is said there is credible, updated and corresponds with reality. But these are details ; overall I think it's a miracle on the modern railway that the system and the agents within it enable what happens. Long may they prosper.