Ton-up Steam locos that survived into preservation

Oh that made me laugh

 

Hi Buseng

Sadly I don't know what Castle that was that failed the valve exam - perhaps someone on here does?*

Hi All,

Getting back on topic in comedy mode, a while back, didn't the original Stephenson's Rocket go to tour Japan by air? This would therefore make it (in a way) the fastest moving preserved standard gauge steam engine in history!

I'll get my coat...

All the best,

Team 4079

 

Tom, I tend to keep off these sort of threads these days if I can because so much inacuracy gets in. Certainly not deliberate from current posters, but innacuracies repeated from days gone by stories that are just not backed up by properly documented timing logs. And they can lead to protracted debate that goes nowhere worthwhile!

I am deeply involved in another matter at the present, (researching the feasability of writing a book on UK Short-Eared Owls would you believe). Or I would be now working on producing my full list of properly authenticated UK steam 100 mph runs. I think I once mentioned 60 or 70 as the likely number, but was pulled up on that by one of my peers as being too generous! Many that are often mentioned as being 100 mph runs will not make that list when I do go to my peers to assemble all the data and publish the timing logs and data.

But those I do know are true are 35028's 103/4 mph near Fleet in December 1966. I was on that train, (7.15 pm ex Soton), two days later, but my elder brother timed the 100 mph plus run. Don was and still is a top rate train timer, (although he has been known to time boxes. I must ask for his medication to be increased! LOL! Wink).

I was on the 105mph run behind 35005 on 15th May 1965. I did a presentation folder a couple of years go on that run, and presented it to Gordon Hooper, the driver that night, at the annual Nine Elms Loco Shed re-union held on the Bluebell Railway.

Re the last UK steam 100 mph. That was 35003, very, very sadly not preserved. On the 26th June she reached 106 mph near Fleet. I was on the footplate that night at that speed and the footplate log I recorded has recently been published in Steam Railway. 35003 also reached 105 mph on 28th June, two days later. 35028 could have reached it's third recorded ton on the 27th. With the loco just about to be sold to the MNLPS, one of their number asked Fred Burridge, (the driver that week), to take it easy that night, so we had to make do with a very leisurely 95 mph.

Comments were made that week that in buying 35028 the MNLPS had gone for the wrong engine. No matter how much I like 35028, I still agree with that comment. 35003 was an incredibly fast MN. I had a significant number of very fast runs behind her between 1962 and 1967. She reached 106 and 105 that June 1967 week when she was in pretty awful mechanical condition and whilst being driven nowhere near flat out. 20% cut off and the regulator was never fully open. A light load yes, but we did start from Basingstoke and reach the maximum inside 9 miles from the start. And that section is not all downhill. She is also the only UK steam loco, (subject to review), to have reached 100 mph three times, (albeit one was after a 99mph minimum), on a normal UK service train. A run myself and just a few others timed in April 1967. Max was just 101 mph. Start to stop, Basingstoke to Woking again.

35022 was also a fast MN. But off the top I can't recall a 100 mph run with her. Low 90s though Andover on the down ACE in 1964 was my best behind her.

Anyway. Enough from me. Hope the spelling is OK but I haven't checked it as I'm knackered. My elapsed time in waiting for and watching Short Eared owls last March, and from November last year up to today is around 300 hours, including a good few more today and I need some sleep.

 

Thanks Bryan - good to hear some authoritative data!

One thing that would be interesting: how many 100+ instances were there that are unrecorded? In other words, did the presence of a known timer on the train spur the crew into extra efforts, or is it all chance?

Let's say that you were present on one particular service ten times in a year, and on one of those ten occasions, 100mph was reached. But the service ran every day throughout the year. Can you extrapolate that maybe 100mph was reached on average once every ten runs but largely unrecorded? Or does the presence of the timer increase the likelihood that high speeds were reached? Obviously you'd have to make allowance for load, weather etc. But the question is: does your 60 or 70 authenticated 100mph runs represent the majority (or at least a sizeable minority) of occasions when 100mph was achieved, or does it represent the tip of an iceberg?

Seem to have been plenty round our way over the winter, (see Latest Sightings | Wiltshire Ornithological Society). Not that I've seen any, though I had an overwintering blackcap in the garden the other day Amongst rare birds, Little Egrets are more my thing: they stand out a mile and are frequent visitors even in the centre of Salisbury.

Tom

 

Worcester's Castles did it regularly down Campden Bank on their way home

 

With a top speed of 93mph, the German BR 01.10 Pacifics have to be a contender for 100mph running...4 of them in preservation.

18.201 did 100mph a few months back.

Also the BR 05 ran (and held the world speed record in 1936), although 002 was scrapped, 001 remains and would have no doubt passed the 100mph mark several times.

How about SNCF locomotives ? (perhaps noelist knows?) was the 231k a contender ?

Pm36-2 was built for speed, though I'm not aware of the ton in the 1930's, it isn't beyond possibility, it has done 90 in the last several years.

For a British ton in preservation, Poland is probably the best bet, steam is allowed line speed, taking something here for maybe a 21st century go may not be such a bad bet.

 

5029 was based at Worcester during the best part of 1958. Not very long I know, but you never know... It may have done it!

I guess the only known 100mphs are the ones with the timers on them, which unfortunately means we will never know how fast some of our saved locos have been in the past.

 

7027, the only unrestored ex Barry Castle, was at Worcester until Aug 1963 when it came here to Reading. During the time it spent at Reading it was mostly on station pilot duties & possibly on some local trains. I was fortunate to have a short footplate ride on it whilst it was performing said pilot duties at Reading Station. It was sad to see it withdrawn from Reading shed in December 1963. Even more sadder seeing it as a stripped out hulk at Crewe, maybe one day it will be like 5043 currently is.

 

Some fascinating posts here. I've enjoyed following the thread through (and I started it), and thanks to everyone for their interesting comments. I had no idea that 6024 or 4079 had topped 100. The only contender I haven't seen mentioned is 35029 (OK - there's bits of it missing, but it's still preserved) Have I been imagining things, or did I read somewhere that Ellerman Lines hit 100 once?

 

I can't recall a proper 100 mph behind 35029 at present. Need to think about that. One was claimed, but when I checked the log the likely max was low 90s! A bit like the claim for a Light Pacific doing 106 mph down Roundwood Bank. There is a photo of the speedo showing over 100mph. My log is currently missing but my mileage book shows I was on that train. And I never had a ton behind a light pacific down Roundwood bank! A good few in the mid 90s. But never a ton. A start from Basingstoke and stop at Winchester, (they were the trains that mainly ran fastest down Roundwood because they weren't Nine Elms top link crews! LOL), made it a little harder. And I suspect a number of crews got 100 mph showing on the speedo and eased back, when in fact real speed was in the mid 90s.

And Tom. 100mph running under any circumstances was very rare in the UK, (as it was throughout Europe). It was never needed by any schedule. And rarely attempted. But yes, a few certainly must have been done that weren't recorded. But from the very large knowledge base re drivers and driving styles etc amongst timers it would only ever have been a few.

The claimed 106 mph for the light pacifc when the max was in the high 90s is not the worst example I've seen of a gross over estimate. There is a well worn story of a King reaching 108 mph. The maximum was said to have been timed over a 1/4 mile by an inspector on the footplate. Sometime ago I was sent a very detailed analysis of that run by someone whose skills in analysing steam locomotive performance are some way above mine. I can't quickly find the details, but I know it left me feeling that run may not even make the UK steam 100 mph list! But the story got going and has kept going for decades now, like they do.

Anyway Tom. If the weather holds I shall be back to my lovely owls soon. We had a reported 20 or so come onto the Isle of Sheppey last Autumn to over winter from their Northern breeding grounds. Lovely to watch and photo. Those still there almost run to a timetable and NEVER have a box on the back! LOL! Way off topic, and only for those who have an interest, the blog I ran in 2011. I've not started again this year as I've a large numbers of photos to sort out! Kent Yeti's Bird Photos

 

And Tom. 100mph running under any circumstances was very rare in the UK, (as it was throughout Europe). It was never needed by any schedule. And rarely attempted. But yes, a few certainly must have been done that weren't recorded. But from the very large knowledge base re drivers and driving styles etc amongst timers it would only ever have been a few.

It may well have been that some 100mph+ runs were never reported as crews feared discip action?

 

Of course some 100 mph steam runs would have happened and remained unrecorded. But I doubt very many.

Believe me, since steam started running fast, timers have been drawn to fast drivers like s..t to a barn door on a frosty night!

Early timers from the UK and France were drawn as far as the USA when word got out as to what was happening there. As early as the first real chance of steam loco 100 mph running, which tends towards the Philadelphia and Reading P5 "Camelback" Atlantics in 1907. And even well before than, back into the 19th Century.

If steam locos started running fast the timers turned up! For which those of who study the subject will remain eternally grateful for some of the data that has been recorded

One thing I will never be able to substantiate, although it may well be very close to accurate. Is my view that just one week or even less of USA Hiawatha steam running at it's peak could have seen more individual 100 mphs than in the whole history of UK steam operation. One normal daily 1937 run shows 100mph reached and exceeded 7 times on just one run betwen Chicago and to near Milwaukee. And getting back on topic, it is very, very sad that none of the ten locos involved, (Atlantics and 4-6-4s), got preserved.

This loco is, IMHO, the most superb steam loco ever produced. Oh for a Euro Lottery win to build another one and get it running somewhere in preservation!



Oops. Sorry. Got me going about really fast steam now, and that always ends in the USA.

I'll try and stick to UK preserved steam or my owls from now on! LOL!

 

ah I missed that bit of the question...........

 

7027 is not one I remember at Worcester - my principal memories of Worcester Castles are 7005 and 7007 as they were the usual locos for the "Cathedrals Express" and that was the one I tried to see most evenings.

 

7027 85A 21/05/60-31/08/63.
BRDatabase - the Complete British Railways Locomotive Database 1948-1997

 

OT I know but I loved the owl photos, some of those images are magic. I guess most are taken in poor lighting conditions or do you manage to see them during the day?

 

I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't there - just commenting that it wasn't one I particularly remembered.

 

It is an interesting thought that not many ‘tons’ went unrecorded but I suspect many 100 mph runs did go unrecorded, particularly in the late 1950’s on Eastern region. Remember we only know about Bill Hoole’s (alleged) 117 mph with 60007 because a PW engineer happened to be on the train one evening. It is understood that Hoole almost got the sack because of it apart from a valiant rear-guard action from his colleagues. I believe the official limit was 90 mph.

I don’t have the book to hand but C.J. Allen wrote in his book on British Pacific Locomotives referring to only the three occasions that an LMS pacific had been recorded at 100 mph “and that is probably as many as LNER ‘pacifics’ achieve down Stoke Bank in a week” (or words to that effect).

Concerning the Worcester Castles’, I read Jack Gardner’s book recently and he records the limit down the bank was actually 75 mph. In the 50’s a PW engineer rode with him on a Castle down the bank with a view to raising the limit. Jack records that he and his driver were stunned because they had no idea the limit was 75 mph and regularly did over 90. Anyway the PW man told them to “have a go”, which they did, but the Castle was a particular poor riding engine and gave the inspector a very rough ride down the bank. At the end of the trip the crew asked him what he though of the prospects of raising the limit, he replied “no chance!”. Once this was known I doubt there would be rush to report 100 mph running.

 

Bryan - if you do come across the details of that analysis please post it - thanks