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Ton up Tornado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by MarkinDurham, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    As a student of English - fair comment. Edited...
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Er - bit extreme?

    Worth reading Peter Townend's "East Coast Pacifics" book. The work done on the A1s to remediate the poor running of some members of the class is well documented. 60136 Alcazar was mentioned specifically as one such perpetrator.

    It is interesting to note that the development of the A1s - arguably starting with the P2s - had through the Thompson A2 Pacific designs and the Peppercorn A2s, a number of handling issues. The Thompson A2/2s initially rode well but quickly became more rough riding as they got closer to shopping.

    I'm yet to find a direct quote on the A2/1s being so bad - one wonders if the overall longer wheelbase and higher tractive effort had something to do with it.

    Nevertheless it's a habit of riding that started with the A2/2s, went through the A2/3s and came out the other side with the A1s. No quick fixes for it either. I wonder how bad riding the 90,000 mile per shopping A1s must have been?
     
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Nothing from Joe Duddington about it...





     
  4. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

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    What an amusing amount of froth is being generated by folk who have never been on an A1 footplate at speed! Yes, the class is/was prone to a degree of lateral sway at certain speeds but Peter Townend commented that Tornado was no worse than the originals and well within acceptable limits. Geoff Bird, who rode on Saint Mungo's footplate at a recorded 103mph, noted that there was a resonant speed at about 75mph when the locomotive exhibited a degree of sway, above which everything stabilised and "became astonishingly smooth, like gliding on ice". The fact that Dave Proctor was happy firing at 100mph suggests all was well during this trial.

    Foxy
     
  5. NSWGR 3827

    NSWGR 3827 New Member

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    Having now seen the BBC Documentary a couple a of times, and after reading the discussion here are my observations.
    The Tender did seem to sway a bit at times, but as the Camera does not show the Speedo we cannot have any accurate idea of how fast it is moving at that precise point and may have been moving at much less than 100Mph. It could have also been travelling over points, rough track, etc. as the outside can not be seen no one can tell.
    While the closing credits are running there is a scene taken from a camera mounted on the front of the Tender, the Speedo at this stage is showing at or close to 100 Mph there seems to be very little movement of Engine or tender at this stage and would myself consider this to be remarkably stable given the speed the loco is travelling at (been on much rougher locomotives at half that speed) and that both engine and tender are 'rigid frame'/'fixed wheelbase' vehicles, the Fireman can also been shovelling during this footage so I don't think (personally) instability is going to pose any problems.
    Mention is made about keeping the tender as full as possible to avoid skidding Wheels which brings to mind a couple of questions,
    Down under we have a couple of Classes of Locomotive which have Hydrostatic Tender Brakes, where Brake Cylinder Pressure is reduced as the tender is emptied of water. Does any loco in the UK have anything similar?
    Secondly does Tornado's Tender have Compensated or Uncompensated Brake Rigging?
     
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  6. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There speaks (writes) a scientist.
     
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  7. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I hope I'm not included in that froth! Only adding to the background of the class' history.
     
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  8. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I was ignoring the film clip and noting what one of the crew said plus what we know from history about A1s that @30567 has already reminded us about.

    Important therefore that the A1ST and DBC had a 'heads up' on ride quality. Were they to try it with an A4 or dare I suggest a MN, they might be more reassured.
     
  9. fish7373

    fish7373 Member

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    British steam loco`s are not fitted with VARIABLE LOAD CONTROL VALVE short for VLCV only fitted to freight wagons and underground trains dare say modern EMU`S as well. PS more froth LOL . FISH7373 81C NFP
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  10. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

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    No Simon, of course not!

    Foxy.
     
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  11. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    Vertical Load Control Valves maybe?
    Kind regards
    Jos Koopmans
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't think that is what NSWGR 3827 was referring to. I don't believe 60163 has compensated brake rigging as I think it is like other LNER 8 wh tenders with two pull rods (one on each side) and no compensation between brake shoes. I'm told that is the reason why the original tender brake gear had to be replaced but I'm quite happy to be told I'm talking rubbish.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Thanks Foxy - sorry a bit gruff from me earlier, it's been a long week.
     
  14. fish7373

    fish7373 Member

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    Variable Load Control
    Although the retardation controller is a form of load control - because the braking rate is monitored, a heavier train will require more brake cylinder pressure, so the retarder will not reach its setting until the right rate is reached - it is rather crude. It only monitors the whole train, not individual cars. This means that lightly loaded cars in a generally heavy train are still at risk from a skid or wheelslide, as it is called. The solution is in variable load control. The car weight is monitored, usually by a lever fitted between the car and the bogie, which detects the bogie spring depression as weight increases. The lever is connected to a regulating valve in the brake cylinder feed pipe, so that the brake cylinder pressure is varied in relation to the weight of the car. With the introduction of air suspension, load control is achieved by monitoring the level of air in the suspension system and regulating brake cylinder pressure accordingly. Nowadays, the same load signals are used to vary acceleration and dynamic braking according to car weight.
     
  15. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    So in essence it's the same principle that my old Renault 16 had: where a lever connected to the rear torsion bars adjusted a valve that controlled the admission of fluid to the rear brake cylinders to stop the rear wheels from locking up when the car was lightly loaded.
     
  16. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    The theory sounds right. The landcruiser ute that I drive for work can (in theory) take up to 1oookg in the tray so it has a similar device to adjust braking with differing loads. It was not adjusted correctly for a time and it had terrible stopping power.
     
  17. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not good with a tonne in the tray!

    I think it was actually pioneered by Citroen in the DS in 1955; but when the 16 came to market in the UK in 1966 it was the only conventionally-sprung car to have it AFAIK.
     
  18. NSWGR 3827

    NSWGR 3827 New Member

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    Am unable to provide a diagram or link, However The device I am referring to (What we have on Loco tenders down under) is part of the Westinghouse A6-ET Brake equipment and is commonly called the 'Hydrostatic tender Brake' and has been fitted to some Locomotives since c.1943. It contains 2 Valves, a H Control Valve & a F Relay Valve. The H control Valve takes Air from the Brake Cylinder on the Loco & water from the tender, the more water in the tender the more air is fed to the F relay which in turn provides Main Res Air to the Brake Cylinders on the Tender.
    Compensation between Brake Shoes/Blocks is the question I was asking and The reason I ask about is that in my experience Locomotives with uncompensated Rigging tend to be more prone to skidding Wheels.
     
  19. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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  20. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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