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Ton up Tornado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by MarkinDurham, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Going so well they chose to add an extra carriage during the run? ;)
     
  2. Deltic

    Deltic New Member

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    Fantastic news to hear tornado reached 100mph

    Also tornado due to make an ecs from doncaster to orton mere on monday for the best of british weekend at the nene valley railway over april 22nd/23rd plus driver experiences on the 21st and 24th april and an evening dining train on the 21st.

    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54852/2017/04/17/advanced
     
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  3. gricerdon

    gricerdon Guest

    Yes a brilliant achievement and the first 100 mph in the UK since 35003 on 28th June 1967 (105 mph).

    Of course GB is talking about Tornado as he is a leading light in the A1 Trust and the most important point is reducing journey times by finding better paths by using 90 mph to good effect.

    Its up to the owners of other locos to make their case and of course for me it would be great to see Clan Line 90 mph certified. It did 103 mph on 12th December 1966, probably the best of all the SR 100 runs as it was with a decent load.

    But today is the A1 Trust's day and very well done to them

    Don (wish I had been there)
     
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  4. gricerdon

    gricerdon Guest

    I think it was 95 mph
     
  5. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Looking at the livery on some of the rag tag of stock, I am surprised that Mr Branson hasn't come out and tried to claim some of the credit?;)

    Thing is it becomes their USP and thus if they remain the only loco passed will aid bookings and income so can understand why they may prefer if no one else were passed. Often much A1ST publicity reads as if steam on the mainline did not exist until they arrived (much like if one compares the FL and PL in football) so one can understand this position, ultimately its a business so entirely understandable.

    Great achievement and chapeau all round, although I do wonder how many unofficial tons were achieved in the 80's and 90's - I know we got up into the late 90's (at least - it was mileposts and paper calculations so a speed could only be calculated every 2 or 3 miles) with a very unexpected locomotive in the late 80's through Bicester?
     
  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Can you name another group which has:
    • built a new steam locomotive for the mainline from scratch
    • has achieved 90mph and 100mph top speed
    It's not just about the physical locomotive but the paperwork and groundwork that had to be done too.

    It is not, and never has been, a question of "can they do it" but "do they have the safety case and permission to do it" which is quite a different thing altogether.

    That is quite a bold statement to make. So what sort of condition do you believe Tornado is in? Given she is just approaching 10 years out on the mainline (has it been so long?)

    As has been said, it is for each locomotive owner to make their own case for high speed running.

    Anyone would think that Tornado's achievement last night precludes other people from putting in the hard work the A1 Trust has done and doing it themselves.

    I rather think there's an element of sour grapes afoot.
     
  7. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't think we can ever be precise regarding what was done in the old days without any timing?

    I know (insofar as being told by my father who worked inside) that when pressed on speeds many of the Swindon trials drivers and inspectors would just raise an eyebrow and note 'they will go a lot faster than you think they will'? so I suspect that many of the mainline passenger loco's surviving today may have been taken up over a ton, especially on the overnight milk and newspaper trains which had little to witness nor reprimand the drivers bar signalmen and guards.
     
  8. Penricecastle

    Penricecastle Member

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    It would be a nice touch if Tornado carried a plaque to commemorate it's 100mph achievement.
     
  9. lappinp

    lappinp New Member

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    I suspect thats very likely and a certain Royal will be asked to unveil it.
     
  10. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Nice to see she was wearing the 'matey' headboard last evening.
     
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  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Please don't anyone dare turn this thread into an opportunity to have a pop at the A1ST or Tornado for that matter. As has been said, today is Tornado's day and all credit to the A1ST that they have persuaded Network Rail that this is something to consider for a locomotive that is less than 10 years old. There is a compelling argument that Graeme Bunker has correctly mentioned for public consumption about the extended days now that pathing is more tricky. He could have also said that Tornado is developing the capacity for extended periods of running between water top ups which is a view that the DBC crews also echo. Yes you can add a water carrier, as has VT, but with respect to them, that's something they needed to do so as to give the range they want. With Tornado it's clearly less of an issue - at least a 100 miles seems possible without too much difficulty.

    The other point is that not every loco owner would want their engine to run at up to 90 as a matter of course. The A1ST has made that decision and good luck to them.
     
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  12. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    Ah cue the ultimate Tornado standard bearer....

    I have already said, twice, in this thread that 90 mph running would be needing new safeguards and more stringent permissions to be set for 90mph running. The new build steam locomotive argument really is a non-starter. The tollerences that engine were built with years ago, whether measured in imperial or metric were still remarkably tight, otherwise they simply wouldn't work, nor achieve the great reliability that many designs reached. An engine running today that is 60 years old, 90 years old still has to prove itself reliable, and has to prove that it is capable to the same standards. Tornado still is a modern built engine but runs on exactly the same engineering principles. Age doesn't come into it. Either you meet the requirements or you don't. Both are still steam engines, both still have outside motion, they all have engineering which is precise and has to fit and the design is comparable to the others that are 70-80 years old as its based on technology of the same period.

    Tornado's reliability is impressive and the engine is in great condition, but read their statements and you'd think they are the only ones operating to that standard. A pair of Black 5s on the network, joined by a third are without doubt the best examples of maintained and operational steam engines on the network, that are worked much harder than Tornado. Its no surprise that Scotsman's reliability has soared since it was given the same custodian. Older engines are easily capable of running to these same demands, which is why I have already said Tornado should be the vanguard into this new era and not the exception.

    Bittern has already done 90mph runs recently and its a case of engines that can meet the criteria should be able to do so, but that shouldn't come from the owners. Instead its the operators that should be pointing out that this is certainly where the network and future will be going and as a result be looking for and finding engines that can meet the challenge of running at 90mph.

    Again, as I've said its a fantastic achievement for Tornado, but this isn't a case of sour grapes its a case of Tornado should be magnanimous at such and occasion, rather than profess their own greatness. Tornado will also be the standard that will set new heights when 90 mph will become the norm, but I would also think that DBC are the ones who should be getting significant credit for this, as its them that will be sorting the paperwork, operation and resource to make this reality for regular running.

    Both Tornado and DBC have set the standard and are ahead in others on meeting the new demand that faster services need to fit in with the more crowded railway. Will WCRC want to? Or will IOS, ROG, or VT also seek to follow. Its a fantastic day, with consequences that will be fascinating to watch develop.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Just going to quote this and extend my congratulations to the Trust once more. I've said my bit.
     
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  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    On the self publicity point, you really don't understand the nature of publicity if you think that the A1ST is doing anything other than promoting its brand. It's definitely not doing so at the expense of others, in my view.

    And on the speed point, you can forget any locomotive not fitted with air brakes being allowed to run above 75, even if the owner wanted to, which I suggest is unlikely.
     
  15. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    There's a spectrum isn't there from 'it were going like the clappers' to dynamometer car readings. I think Big Al is referring to the locos where there is good authentication.

    Re the query about 6233, going back to the days when I read Trains Illustrated like the bible (actually rather more carefully), I can recall some high speeds being noted between Penrith and Carlisle past Plumpton but I can't recall reading about 100mph. The MNs had their swansong when the track was upgraded in 1967 but the Duchesses never had their chance in regular service.

    My reading of the SR experience is that 90 mph was common, only 5mph over the line speed but 100mph was very rare. But @Big Al and @gricerdon will know far better!
     
  16. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Wishful thinking I suggest. It's a select club with, now, only three members from the point of view of those locomotives running on the main line currently. Fact.
     
  17. pwsw5054

    pwsw5054 Member

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    60163 on bbc 1 lunchtime headlines

    Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk
     
  18. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Now it's on BBC lunchtime TV news, tremendous publicity for the A1 Trust
     
  19. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    The interesting thing about both No9 down Wellington and 46229 down from Shap was we timers who were there got the speeds quoted as an average over a quarter mile. No GPS to give us instant speeds. That's why there's still speculation today and probably always will be about whether they or did they not hit the magic 100.

    On a Days Out tour in November 1996 from Shrewsbury to Reading with 46229, we had a non-working Class 47 in the rake. We were late (when weren't Days Out trains?) and it was dark most of the way. At Reading, after an admittedly exhilarating run up the GWML, the driver of the Duchess told us he'd hit the 100 mark. He was a bit prone to making outrageous claims but we wandered back and asked the driver of the '47 who told us he'd had a maximum of 102 on his clock. It had been too dark to milepost; no GPS to fall back on, so who knows...
     
  20. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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