Tornado

I would state that almost any class 8 engine on the mainline has worked as hard as 60163. What makes you think that 60163 has hauled heavier trains than 6233, 6024, 35028 etc etc?

 

Well 35028 is only used on the VSOE and is only use every couple of weeks 6233 is never worked very hard and again probably less than 20 times a year. Tornado as amassed 30,000 miles in less than 2 years .There is no class 8 engines that have been worked anywhere near as hard.Oliver Cromwell was worked very hard and ended up of the mainline for 10 month's for firebox repair's.

 

I thought you would say this but that isn't the point of the article in SR. The point is about train weight, not number of turns done. That is the counter-argument used by Graeme Bunker. I suggest you go and read it again...

 

Noted as the heaviest passenger trains on the network, by the way she looked great motoring through Thornton Heath on the up fast today with a dead box in tow

 

It seems that the ball of response is with WCRC to explain why its own inspections and that of its qualified appointed inspectors - both of which passed the work - have been 'trumped' by the contractor not being approved. Surely its analogous to having building work which was done by DIY rather than a 'competent person' signed off by the Building Inspector? In this case approved is approved in the end?

 

Perhaps WCR just don't want to operate 60163? And were looking for an excuse....
Easier to blame a sub-contractor, than to say they can't be bothered with the hype.

 

Sorry Neil, but I feel you're missing half the work Tornado has done.

How many preserved railways did she visit - and pull anything from eight coach to thirteen coach trains on? How many extra "cold starts" did that boiler have, between a mainline run, to a preserved railway, and back onto the mainline again over two years?

It is absolute fact that Tornado has - for sheer number of trains, and mileage - been the hardest worked locomotive in preservation over the last two years. You cited 6233, 6024, 35028 - how many preserved lines have any of those three locomotives visited, in addition to their own mainline work, and how comparable is it to Tornado?

This is a fact which has been overlooked completely when looking at the locomotive: none of those you cited have had the sheer number of trips on, and away from, the mainline in two years that 60163 has done.

 

Err no - I think you need to read the post 2725 above and understand the implications of what it says there.

WCR would want to run the loco if there is a sound commercial case for doing so I would think. With the trust 'going off piste' with a non approved contractor, WCR saw additional risk/expense and chose not to take that gamble. Seams so simple to me.

 

Steam is on the DRS safety case, just choose not to use it at the moment.

 

If we're talking about comparing Tornado to other heavily worked mainline loco's, IMO the best comparison is 4472 - and we all know what condition she was in at the end of her last period of mainline running...

Chris

 

No, no, no, no. This isn't the point being made in the article in Steam Railway. The point is about TRAIN WEIGHT not 'cold starts' (what's the opposite - a hot start, how do you do that?). It applies equally to every engine that's worked regularly on the mainline not just 60163. Go and read the damn thing yourself.

 

Sorry Neil what it says Tornado topping stoke bank at 70+ mph requires a steaming rate of 40,000 lbs 20 miles later or 15 minutes the engine is then stopped to take water so the boiler is cooled quickly ,then it is back up to line speed and high steaming rates again .

Weight of the train isn't everything it's the power needed to accelerate the train up to line speed and maintain it which places the greatest stress on the boiler.

Oliver Cromwell ran for 18 months before needing serious repair to it's firebox.

 

Ah, but was 70013's firebox problem lying dormant before it ran?

 

And 60163 is the only engine to have ever worked a train like that since 1970? Come on...

 

Well, 70013 doesn't have a brand new boiler, so might be excused the need for some repairs after 18months, but then to be fair I don't think it has done as much work as 60163.

 

Well we are becoming more obsessed with performance the east coast main line is so busy a 75 mph engine on a 125mph railway is working extremely hard to fit in.

No other class 8 engine as worked anywhere near as hard if you no different tell me which one.

 

No Neil, my point is about how much work 60163 has worked, full stop, compared to the other engines you mentioned.

The boiler has gone from hot, to cold, to hot again for pretty much every single mainline run and stint on preserved railway. In other words, yes - "cold starts" - but extreme cycles of heating and cooling on many occasions to be taken into account.

30,000+ miles accumulated over two years of running, and that figure only took into account the mainline trips, so I am certain it's a few thousand or more higher when you take into account the runs on preserved railways.

You seem absolutely dead set on "train weight" as the only way of measuring performance/work - if you take into account exactly how much work (i.e. how many trains!) Tornado has done compared to the other engines, one of the root causes of the boiler problems (and as I've said previously, the similarities to the early days of the Bulleid Pacific boilers) becomes clear.

I haven't read that article in any event: so how could I possibly comment?

 

I don't think the other Class 8 engines simply dawdle about on the ECML/WCML at 25mph. I can't win this argument because I can't prove my own thinking unless I go and buy 3 years worth of Steam Railway magazine to read Mike Notley's articles on train performance but if you think that 60163 is the only class 8 engine that works hard (ie pulls heavy trains at 75mph) then I think you're wrong, very wrong.

 

Well then don't because that's what this particular argument is about. You're arguing a completely different point that has nothing to do with the article in SR which myself and Keith are debating.

 

I was making a statement of fact which is a direct counter to the point you are making, regardless of what steam railway may or may not have said.

Tornado has pulled more trains and done more "work" than any of the engines you mentioned previously, both on the mainline and on preserved lines.

That you cannot deny.