Tornado

I never progressed quite that far ….

 

A man dies, a library burns...
Gen z ; er so like whats a library ?

 

If it's not on TikTok it doesn't exist.

For the record, I knew someone older than me who opined that if it wasn't on Wikipedia, it didn't exist...

 

I'm sure you're as bright if not brighter than me. My younger brother is the electric side and is very intelligent..... bordering on insane...you ask his advice and you get a lecture, even if it's changing a plug....we get on well though, that's most important...

 

Brilliant...made me laugh that did...

 

Depends what type of brain though...

 

It seems to be a sparky thing, I have a friend and long term colleague who’s exactly the same. He’s electrical, electronic and control ! In fact, coming to think about it, he’s a real life control freak ….

 

It's the electric shock they most likely got at around age five. At least, that's my excuse...

 

When the decision was made to overhaul the current boiler, were the likes of Leaky finders not considered, after all they had done firebox work on Clan line so clearly had the expertise to do the job, and possibly might have not made the same mistakes Meiningen made with the boiler, but the above post citing loss of skills might well be some of the reasons why the overhauled boiler now has issues, that should have never happened,

 

Just to jump in here before we get an established "Meiningen = bad" rhetoric, if, and I accept its an if, my posited theory above holds true, then it wouldn’t matter who did the overhaul, because removing any part of the structure would cause other parts of the structure to move.

If residual stresses due to welding are causing deformation, then the only way to remediate that is to heat treat to remove the remedials...either by baking them out, or not welding stays at all...

It remains an open question, but id invite anyone to suggest a better theory as to how you move a firebox 1.5" out of square, and to go further, it would be interesting to know if this has happened with any traditionally (threaded) stayed boilers.

Now, im expecting somene very bright spark to chime in, "but the inside of the box probably gets to temps above the transition temp for residual stresses to come out" to which id say, thats possible, but id like to see eveidece given there is a water jacket behind it, but the primary rebulttal is, what about the outside wrapper, where all the stays will rarely see temps over what, 200 degrees at most?

Transition temps for residual stress removal in steels need to get above 600 deg C typically, but it varys on the materials used and heat input etc etc, and so this is what my theory is resting on. We arent generating nearly enough heat globally over the structure to remove all the residual stresses. Of that, I am fairly confident. If this is the cause of the movement, is less clear. On overhaul, are they pinning the boiler in to a jig to stop it moving? Or welding up in a specific pattern to mitigate this possibility?

Just went for a dig and found this image from 2006. So the wrappers have struts supporting them, and this is all pinned up before the stays have been welded in. Its in a carcass state. Notable. Highly notable. Northernsteam == Meiningen Locomotive Works 2006

 

Reply moved to the more appropriate Tornado thread ….

 

Let’s just speculate for a moment what’s actually been going on with the three boilers …..

The original boiler for Tornado, (and the only one that we know has actually been completed and steamed), was built in Germany, to dimensions specified by the Trust, which apparently were those of the LNER, albeit with an all welded steel box vs a rivetted copper original. It has been widely stated that no changes were made to the water spaces and staying, despite Meiningen’s advice to the contrary (did this affect any warranty?).

Since then the stays have been modified several times with increasing numbers of flexibles. This is evidenced by many photos of the unclad boiler. Also the foundation ring corners have been replaced once, maybe twice, after cracking with (machined bar or castings?) being superseded by forgings to give better grain orientation. ( I don’t know if the foundation ring was replaced on the latest boiler overhaul). Now is it possible that too many flexible stays could lead to dimensional instability? The measured distortion inside the firebox may not be the only deformation contributing to the tyre fouling.

I think it’s self evident that the planning U-turn to overhaul the old boiler rather than wait for the first of the new spec boilers in order to ‘speed up’ the return to traffic rapidly proved to be seriously flawed. Firstly it took ages for the repaired boiler to return to the UK, then the saga of the tubes followed, and then the discovery of the distortion and tyre interference. In parallel with all this there was the ongoing protracted issues with fitting and testing the ETMS, which has only just passed inspection to allow the loco to run on the network, albeit with the ETMS part dormant.

So why didn’t they wait for the new boiler, as it must have been obvious just how far off the ETMS was? Although even now the boiler has yet to set foot on UK soil and I’ve now lost count of the number of delivery dates that the Trust have published. Could it be that the contract is now stalled, mired in claims / debts etc? Also what is the current status of the two new boilers? I’ve read that the second of the two is still a collection of plates?

Does anyone have a clearer picture?

 

Is your timeline right? I thought that the A1SLT had decided to send the boiler to Meiningen well before Leaky Finders had done anything for Clan line? Leaky Finders are a comparatively young company.

Tom

 

Speaking of ETCS, there were closures on the ECML last weekend south of Peterborough tied in with work on this system, known as the East Coast Digital Programme.

 

Sheff has showed 3 instant pictures of the one and only Tornado boiler.
I cannot find them now
First had no flexible stay domes
Second had many high over boiler centerline
and third had flexible stay domes almost everywhere.
Is it such domes that are hindering assembly?

 

As to why, I think you have to hold those at the top responsible, they were saying it would be a 6 month overhaul, and they were already promising Tornado to railways, even before it had been tested, so that must have created pressure to get the job done, and to instead of sending the boiler back, to have the defects remedied, they just plowed on, and now there are doubts about the engines completion, and if it's been done right, for example, turning down driving wheel tyres instead of sending the boiler back, for rectification, and now there's problems with the grate, again possibly pointing towards further issues with the firebox,
If I were the mainline RO, of a toc wanting to run Tornado on the mainline, at high speed with a heavy load, I would have serious concerns about this engines fitness to run.

 

I'm curious as to the relative timescales of boiler and ETMS and dependencies.

[Can anybody remember the story on the Cartazzi truck? That needed sorting out during this period as well IIRC]
Edit -I can't find anything other than a reprofiling of the tyres, so unless anything is found, ignore that point

 

Yes that was another saga. The fireman’s side frame was badly distorted in front of the Cartazzi box, and the horn clearances were way over spec - possibly cause and consequence? I understand this was an old issue. Apparently as-built the truck would jam on tight curves so you might assume the clearances were opened up to keep the job moving? At the 6 month mark in the overhaul, other than marking up the amount of deformation no rectification work had taken place. Subsequently we learned that a section of frame had to be cut out and replaced. (One could imagine that these over-large clearances didn't help the lively ride seen on that 100mph run).

 

Well remembered. Yes I did, and must still have them somewhere I guess. I’ll look again on here, otherwise I’ll try and locate them.