Trawsfynydd and Blaenau Ffestiniog Railway

@ Simon and Miff, its a glass half-empty and half-full. The first 7 mile stretch's future is guaranteed. Work is expected to start disassembling the old station in 2020 at the earliest. Hence why Network Rail have no objections to someone else doing the work for them. So long as the Trawsfynydd team don't get in the way of operations, its a win-win scenario. Ironic, that nuclear power (or cleaning up after it) would ensure any section of this route can be brought back into service.

Gwili needs to get to Conwil, in my opinion, to give the line the length it deserves, and to justify me driving all the way there with my family. While the bridges are a headache, the society OWNS the land. Its remoteness has also saved it, really. There's only one small obstacle (a barn) after Llanpumsaint, through the tunnel to Pencader as well. Even if they don't get that far, its still a very impressive run indeed (unless the Welsh Assembly compulsory purchase the entire route back to make way for the reopening of the original Carmarthen to Aberystwyth ine, everything should work out ok).

P&B has equal potential, but it has operational problems. It needs to get to Waunavon where its level to give them the run around loop, otherwise the expensive running of top-and-tail locomotives, would be financially prohibitive for them in the long-term. If Celtic Energy who are blocking the way, are taken to court for screwing up Margam opencast and refusing to clean it up, perhaps the seizure of the land past Whistle Inn and selling thereof, would pay for the damages? Who knows, who can say really? Southwards, if not for BR selling the trackbed to the council for £1 and allowing Sustrans, all of the money-grabbing, false-economy-creating, lobbying organisations out there, to occupy it, they'd be up to the viaduct by Talywain already. I really want P&B to expand more, the lack of updates since 2011 as far as the councils are concerned, have me worried.

Perhaps I'm bias with Trawsfynydd. I generally hate to see lines mothballed, because the way I see it, if they can take trains, schedule trains for them. Don't allow them to rot away and the Sustrans vultures start to circle in. Felt the same way when I drove past the Margam to Tondu branchline, I saw it very overgrown once and felt quite sad as its a lovely route. Happily there were steel trains diverted there the other month, so its not abandoned.

 

The CHR project is a fascinating one to watch. I guess I'm not alone in feeling that a real milestone will be when the platform canopies (components for which I believe are in store) go back up at Oswestry and the sation starts to regain some of it's historic appearance.

The Cambrian Heritage setup puts me in mind of the early days at Swanage, when the goals there looked like a "Mission Impossible". How wrong the doubters were in that case! If wider regeneration efforts in the area succeed, the railway has a potentially bright future.

 

I hesitate to say "it was easier in the past" but there are some big differences as between setting up a line in the 1970's compared to now. As late as the end of the 1980's, you could purchase a working MK1 for 1k. Even allowing for inflation that's a bargain. There were working locos in industry, and still a good deal left in Barry. Track materials were also easier to obtain, sometimes donated from industry in the case of many an early day. It was also easier to get an LRO for a line that had been closed for one or five years as opposed to the present more expensive TWO procedure with a mountain of paperwork, for a line closed for nigh on 40 years today.

Visitor standards have gone up, and more is expected for you money today, instant coffee anyone?

I'm not saying it's impossible now to set up a line but you have to have deep pockets. Back then it was more a case of beg, borrow, scrimp and save and see where that got you.

There are many factors involved and that's why it's hard to see that the UK will have significant new players in the heritage railway scene, what is more likely is that effort will be amalgamated to enhance existing lines.

Regards

Matt

 

I wouldn't be so sure you're on the right track there Tuska, there's a limit after which lines are too long to be econmic. It's a mileage limit but it's also a boredom limit. Many of our existing lines aren't really much fun to ride for Joe Public, after the initial excitement, even I get a bit bored by looking at cuttings and hedges.

as for Sustrans, well my opinion (and I'm not cyclist or walker) is that many greenways bring in far more customers than a rail line would in many cases. Case in point: new Grennway here in Ireland from Waterford and on to Dungarvan has created 4 new cycle hire shops, togther with the jobs involved and that's in Dungarvan alone. Add in the trade pubs and cafes are gaining and they are a very worthwhile thing to do. The amount of bikes moving on it when I was there was startling.

 

Hmm...

I'm in two minds about this project - this particular part of Wales already has a number of preserved lines and personally would prefer to see effort directed to other areas without existing lines, Llangefni to Amlwych for example. But each to their own - if there are sufficient people, and funds, to make it happen then ok. I would take issue with your description of the line as "merely an overgrown mothballed line with nothing at either end and not really remarkable scenery en route". It may lack the rugged openness of the abandoned line towards Bala, or the delights of the Aberglaslyn pass (WHR), or the railway on a rock shelf of much of the FR, or the lakeside lines of Bala and Llanberis, but few of the big English lines have mountain views, Blaenau Ffestiniog is developing as a tourist centre, and the lake at the Trawsfynydd end is not to be sniffed at.

Steve B

 

All undeniably true, but there is much these days in the way of grants from diverse funding sources and the substantial contribution via the "Gift Aid" scheme and other tax breaks undreamt of by the pioneers of the early heritage lines. Fares have gone up a wee bit over the intervening years too! Swings and roundabouts, Eh?

 

each to their own, I've been there and looked at it, it's not very inspiring I thought as a railway line and I assume there's a major A road level crossing tarmaced over. The thing about the mountain views is you don't have to ride a rail line to see them, how will they draw passengers?

 

Don't class Oswestry as a Welsh railway - it's in England.

Bob.

 

yes but the Cambrian Railway was pretty well Welsh

 

Croesoswallt (Oswestry in English) was predominantly and then partially Welsh-speaking right into the nineteenth century. It is only down to the English drawing the borders that it's ended up in Shropshire. In fact there are still some Welsh speakers there, and indeed a Welsh language bookshop (Siop Cwlwm).

 

IIRC, there's a 'Llan' or two in Shropshire as well.

 

As you say - each to their own! I'm not sure about the A road level crossing - I lived and worked in the area whilst the line was still in regular use and don't recall one. With regard to the views - well you could say that about the WHR!

Steve B

 

It's one of those places that has straddled the border for centuries. Offas Dyke is to the west, Watts Dyke passes through it (putting the Station on the Welsh side, but the main works building on the English side). Strangely though, if you were to have caught a Cambrian Train from Oswestry to Whitchurch you would have briefly crossed over into Wales and back again between Ellesmere and Whitchurch. Which is very much to the east of Oswestry...

Steve B

 

i couldn't fathom it, the line was on my left and then seemed to have switched to the right, I was a bit surprised as I thought the line was mothballed against future use.

 

Howard,

You are getting over WIBNised alas! One thing this area does not lack is railways and there won't be one that could not do with more help, physical or financial or attract more visitors. This project seems yet another instance of the chronic inability of railway enthusiasts to realise that not all the public at large shares their obsession.

Paul H

 

The whole of the Marches area was of debatable nationality - especially in the case of Newport and Monmouthshire, whose nationality was still controversial in the 1970s.

It's just occurred to me that the T&B has, unlike virtually all other post-1980 preserved lines, a huge advantage: it is in a much closer condition to closed lines in the halcyon days of the 1960s. The track's still there; it just needs negotiations on ownership and restoring to use. Unfortunately such a comparison makes the line's achievements look even less impressive and the "give them time to get started" argument even more like special pleading. The Ffestiniog Railway Society was founded in 1951 and has bought their line and were running trains on their first mile of track within 4 years - and made major strides to increase their operating length within the following 4 (they were helped by one donor with deep pockets, of course). The initial Severn Valley Railway Society (since replaced by the modern companies) was founded in '65, was holding open days within 3 years and had bought and were running a public service on their first stretch of track within 5. The T&B have been going on one form or another - and saying "we'll be running trains by the end of next year!" - for about five years or so now, and all they have managed in that time is a bit of vegetation clearance.

I've said this before - both on here and on Facebook - but I really don't see the point of starting a new preserved railway literally next door to one of the best preserved railways in Europe, unless the only thing that matters to you is having your own train set to play with, instead of enjoying being part of a successful railway.

 

I think you are overplaying the significance of grant-aid (from any source) as a form of funding. Its an be incredibly valuable - but I think with the possible exception of the Welsh Highland Railway, I can't think of a whole-railway scheme in which the grant funding has been of existential importance, rather than a supplement to a scheme that was already well established.

Gift Aid is only available to charities, in support of their charitable purpose which would typically be in addition to running trains. In any case, it can't possibly amount to more than 20% of the charitable income - probably rather less- so while it is valuable, it can only be a supplement to the overall funding, not a major component. The bottom line is that to reclaim £1 in Gift Aid, you first of all have to raise £4 in pure donations - probably rather more.

As for other sources of grants - I'm sure other railways would be delighted to hear of them if you know the source! The WHR benefitted from European Regional Development Funding, but with Brexit, who knows how long that source will last, or what might replace it? Sources from Local Authorities and similar are also drying up as a result of Austerity. It seems inconceivable to me that any railway will get an existential amount of funding from those sources - maybe a little enhancement to an existing scheme, but the scheme has to be existing to start with.

As for other sources - again, the major ones, such as the HLF, seem to want to see a track record (no pun intended) first. In other words, they'll offer funds to enhance already established schemes, but generally aren't in the business of funding complete start-ups, which are inherently riskier - at least that seems to be the pattern of major grants to railway groups. Most funders want a degree of confidence that their money will be well spent: the best way to demonstrate that is to have an up-and-running viable scheme with significant demonstrable public support, on the back of which you can then appeal for supplementary funds.

Tom

 

@Jamessquared and @paulhitch Actually gents, much of Wales does lack railways ..... just, not those of the heritage variety!

As things stand, the majority of the points made regarding market saturation are demonstrably valid, but I'd ask you to take my posts on this subject in context of the wider North Wales economy, which Bob Knows could use some stimulation. (Just one reason why the saga of Felin Fawr makes my blood boil!)

It's impossible to argue a case for the T&BR without going off-piste in terms of a railway forum, but I feel it's necessary to reiterate that no heritage operation exists in splendid isolation and for most visitors to an area, a train trip is but one activity among many possibilities on which decisions to part with money are made. To write off the entire district (though in the case of a couple of posts on this thread, not Paul's or Tom's, the term "slag off" would be more appropriate) lying between Blaenau and Bala does the area and it's resident population no service. What's worse is that much on this thread comes across as little better than myopic "We're alright Jack" type protectionism.

By itself, a railway can only acheive so much in economic terms, but the outdoor leisure sector is much larger than just our one area of interest. I hope my earlier musings made it clear that I was speaking of growing the North Wales tourist market. To some, perhaps Llyn Trawsfynydd does lack the beauty of Llyn Tegid*, but that makes it no less of a potentially important resource and note that the water sports sector is hardly negligable in terms of tourist income.

Regarding market saturation, the same arguments were made, rather vociferously as I recall, about the Welsh Highland and as far as over extending goes, there were folks who wanted the Ffesterbahn to settle for Tan-y-Bwlch as the upper terminus and others who swore blind that Golfa Bank made Sylfaen a more sensible destination than Welshpool. Quite a bit of comment in the letters columns of the railway press of the time was harshly critical of the Bala Lake Railway too. Anyone for abandoning any of these one time "unrealistic" lines? No? Didn't think so!

I appreciate that many here will have zero interest in anything not running on rails, but we in turn need to appreciate that many visitors to North Wales have zero interest in railways. Geographically, the area is within easy striking distance of the very large conurbations of Manchester, Merseyside and the West Midlands. That's a very big market. Heritage railways may not by themselves be the primary attraction in all cases, but with a diverse range of activities to entice the widest range of visitors, once they're in the area, increased custom is infinitely more likely than if they never come in the first place.

* that's Bala Lake to us Saes! and while I'm about it, the clue is in the meaning of it's Welsh name.

 

Isn't that exactly what PH said a few posts above?