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Trespassers

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by ralphchadkirk, May 31, 2009.

  1. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    I think if Freds system was rolled out nationally with people being registered on a central database, and as soon as a railway reports something wrong, then they are banned from the lineside from all railways.
     
  2. Ann Clark

    Ann Clark Member

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    Sorry but I thought Small Prairie was making a valid point. However the main purpose of my post is to highlight the dangers of relying on timetables. Frequently especially at galas there will unscheduled moves. I have come across a farmer who used the timetable to move his live stock using the crossing as he did not know there was another untimetabled train about! Luckily he got himself and the livestock off the track as we stopped over the crossing.

    Further to the subject I think that some of the ideas of a National scheme sound very good. I would suggest that the issuing railway ensure that the photters have to undertake their version of a PTS. May I suggest that some one gets their railway to bring this up with the HRA as this might carry more weight than an individual.

    Ann
     
  3. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    A sort of limited lineside pass then? Wherby they are only allowed in certian areas.
     
  4. Beaker

    Beaker Well-Known Member

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    How was Small Praires point valid, Columbine said he does not approve of Tresspass, and subsequently gets shot for apparently approving of it.

    Columbine was saying and I quote ''People shouldn't trespass'' yet it was decided to flame him down for it!
     
  5. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Maybe at the next gala the local constabulary should be asked to go line side with some MHR staff looking for trespassers.
     
  6. ernestgew

    ernestgew Member

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    To be honest, you can't blam him for wanting to make it obvious that it's wrong. Just imagine how he'd feel if he was on the footplate of a loco that hit somebody - it would be terrible. He's not nececarily trying to be snappy, it's just that this isn't a matter to be taken lightly. Yes health and safety does sometimes go over the top, but from the view of staff on the railway you do not want to see someone mowed over by a train. And I know that most photographers are responsible, but it takes only one accident and there's more than one life ruined...

    So please, give the MHR people a brake!
     
  7. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'd certainly be in favour of Freds suggestion if it was ever seriously considered though i'd suggest not making the pricing of the scheme so top heavy, say 20.00 for the initial nationwide permit and then 10.00 - 15.00 to the line which you happen to be visiting.

    Apart from the local out of bounds area's the basic lineside safety isn't that different from one line to the next.

    I agree that a policy of weeding out the numpties would help too in the long run, say something like three strikes and your out ?
     
  8. chessie

    chessie Member

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    Another perspective perhaps - how many of you have been involved in a fatality on the line? I have, on the MHR. I never, ever want to go through that again. They didn't pick up a body, they picked up lumps of meat. As a driver the less people on or about the line the better I like it. Question for all you responsible photters out there - how many of you acknowledge when whistled up by the driver of an approaching train? That's good - all of you. Then how come when I whistle up perhaps 2/5 acknowledge? Have they heard me, are they aware of my approach, are they so engrossed in what they're doing that they don't realise it's not just an image in the viewfinder it's a few hundred tons of metal bearing down on them? As the driver I don't know, I just hope that everything's going to be all right.
    If we give you an area that you can photograph in, how long before you think to yourselves 'well everybody's here, if I just go up that embankment over there I'll get the money shot. I know I'm not allowed but it's only twenty yards......' I've seen people clinging on with one hand, shooting with the other. If they let go, there's only one place they'll end up, under my train.
    On Saturday I was a pilotman at the diesel gala. We stopped at Medstead to cross with the other train (I was in the 37) and the up train from Alton was signalled.People were backwards and forwards across the crossing, encroaching on the fourfoot to get a better photo of us with no thought of the train approaching them from behind. It was scary.
    I don't know how other railways get on, but it's my experience that you can't rely on peoples' intelligence or commonsense to protect themselves and others and so I reiterate that for me the fewer people about the line the better. No amount of money coming in to the railway's coffers can compensate for the inevitable fact that sooner of later someone is going to get killed or seriously injured taking photographs lineside. As a volunteer I should not be subjected to the added stress and pressure that these people bring to the job.
    As a last point, there doesn't seem to be the same scale of problem existing on the national network - do people think that trains on preserved railways weigh less, hurt less and so are less likely to cause injury?
     
  9. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    From my limited understanding of the law, trespass is rarely a criminal offence. So the boys in blue won't get involved. Trespass is a civil offence, where the trespasser could be fined is prosecuted successfully by the landowner. The only criminal offence which could be cause is when a trespasser causes damage while trespassing.

    Richard
     
  10. dace83

    dace83 Well-Known Member

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    Do any railways have jackets with unique numbers on them (like a number plate) so people with lineside passes can be identified by the train crew?
     
  11. DH34105

    DH34105 Member

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    A couple of comments to make please on this clearly quite emotive issue

    To clear up one issue that has been mentioned above about Trespass not being a criminal act - as far as railways are concerned it is usually a criminal offence created under an Act Of Parliament. So it could be prosecuted in a criminal court dependant on the circumstances. How it would be treated on a preserved line would be a matter for either the local police or transport police - apologies not being involved in that area for some considerable while cannot be more specific.


    I would also like to support and add to the comments made by Chessie - in my work some years ago I have had to deal with the after effects of trains hitting people and it is not particularly pleasant - trains moving at any speed hurt a great deal if they hit you - even at the relatively low speeds on a prewserved line - and they need to be treated with respect.
    Hi Vis jackets don't protect you if you are in the wrong place - some people seem to have the idea that all you need is a His Vis and everything is OK - it helps the crew to see you certainly but you need to ct reaponsibly - I would also support most strongly the request for people to acknowledge the driver when they whistle up - it helps to reassure them that you are aware of their presence and is part of basic safety

    Thanks and I will get off the soap box now

    DH
     
  12. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Except that Railways, when nationalised ( and possibly even at the Groupoing ) incorporated their land resources within the Act which - for a variety of legal reasons - means that trespass on railway property is a criminal offence.

    The variety of heritage lines which now own their tracks may find that in the small print of the sales agreement / contract the legal position of the track in law was retained meaning that the railway can initiate a criminal case with Mr Plod the responsible person to investigate criminal activities.
     
  13. shredder1

    shredder1 Member

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    0n the ELR we have recently and successfully summoned tresspasser on a statutory £50 fine, its hardly seems worth it, but does appear to have had an effect on troubled areas of the line, these people were non-enthusiasts by the way
     
  14. MID HANTS MARKETING

    MID HANTS MARKETING New Member

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    Chessie has hit the nail on the head. This is the reason why we insist on PTS valid Photographers only 'line side'. Trespassers are not welcome. I don't care who you are, it's simply not cricket. Please work with us on this. If you want to come and take pictures of our Trains, brilliant, love to have you along. But please abide by the rules and get yourselves on a PTS course. Otherwise, stay the right side of the fence. It's for your own safety as well as for the benefit of our staff and customers.

    If you are PTS certified and you come to our event, then I'd love to see your work with a view to using it for Marketing and Publicity. All work is acknowledged wherever possible. You get the recognition for your work and help the Railway in the process. You can reach me at marketing@watercressline.co.uk Can't say fairer than that.

    Thanks

    Tim Beere
    Marketing Manager
    The Mid Hants Railway 'Watercress Line'
     
  15. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    AS I have posted many times on this board before; Trespass is the act of entering or being upon land without the permission of the owner or legal occupier. It is a civil offence and the powers of the owner/ occupier are limited to removing the trespasser, using reasonable force if neccessary. Police, if called, will only assist the land owner to remove the trespasser. HOWEVER - trespass becomes a CRIMINAL offence on AIRPORTS; GOVERNMENT LAND AND RAILWAYS. Pre-Grouping/Nationalisation - all the companies had their own Act of Parliament that made trespass a criminal offence. At Nationalisation Section 55 of the British Transport Commision Act 1949 (as amended) created a SUMMARY criminal offence of TRESPASS on or in;

    Sidings, embankments, lines, tunnels, cuttings or on electrical apparatus used for the operational working of the railway. Also an offence to trespass in dangerous proximity to lines or electrical apparatus.

    Now, the National Network has a modern-day version of this, but preserved railways would need their own individual act or at the very least, their own bye-laws to make trespass criminal. Without that - no prosecution, but the power of removal for civil trespass would be legal.
     
  16. shredder1

    shredder1 Member

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    very fair comment Tim
     
  17. Here is a scene that may raise a few eyebrows amongst readers of this thread. Chepstow on Saturday morning, 10 minutes before Tornado passed through.......[attachment=0:2zd7ketm]IMAGE_040.jpg[/attachment:2zd7ketm]
     
  18. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Oh God - I dread to think what kind of response the publication of that photo will bring. This thread will now decend into the usual egocentric in-fighting that always develops. Board up your windows boys and girls!!
     
  19. 42296

    42296 New Member Account Suspended

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    How much do you charge for your photos? Get one of me and I'll order an A4 print to have it framed. However, if you do spot me, please do focus your camera properly first!!
     
  20. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Erm , what the hell you on about?
     

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