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True Preservation

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Reading General, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    An important issue for the "let's have a tidy up" school of thought is that once something is gone, it is gone for good, coupled with the fact that sometimes projects simply take a long time to come to fruition.

    As an example, anyone nosing around Kingscote may have noticed an anonymous looking cast pole, probably about 12 - 15 feet long, with two large cross-like projections at one end, tucked away in the station yard. It may look like scrap, but actually it is the main component from probably the last surviving LBSCR goods yard crane and, in due course, will form the centre piece of the goods yard there. If it were to be scrapped, the future possibility of returning the goods yard to something akin to its original appearance would be gone for good. But equally, until resources are available, it will have to lie on its side awaiting erection.

    That's not just an idle possibility: I can think of at least three significant artefacts that have been scrapped, either on the Bluebell or before they were able to be saved, that will now be essentially impossible to replace. (A LSWR water crane; the last surviving complete LBSCR goods brake van; a wooden-framed private owner open wagon). Tidiness is a great virtue, and any railway ought to have a sensible collections policy such that things are only bought in as part of a coherent plan and with a realistic chance of future preservation. But equally, an over-zealous attitude to "tidying up junk" could, and sometimes has, result in the scrapping of unique artefacts.

    Tom
     
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  2. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Do you want to be seen or not? Got a guy in American forces come in pub wearing his camo and hi vis over it...
     
  3. Ruston906

    Ruston906 Member

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    Do we need to ask do you want to create the past all the time is the welshpool railway better for the European coaching stock giving more variety for visitors to enjoy.
    Having a variety of non authentic motive power might be seen as an advantage if the SVR removed all none authentic items there would be one set of coaches at least that would need to go I that a sacrifice they would want to make.
     
  4. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    ...and breathe...
     
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  5. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The irony is that the W&LLR Pickering replica stock, which gets so much justified (IMHO) praise is the only stock you are likely to ride in which is not genuine historical secondary railway equipment. The Sierra Leone carriages, which were built or long distance work, see little use nowadays.

    The origins of equipment worry me far less than its appropriateness. Thus I would rather see in the U.K. for instance, a German kleinbahn 2-4-0T at the head of clerestory roofed four wheelers than some heavy freight locomotive hauling overweight corridor stock. Similarly, although modern facilities are demanded by visitors, please don't overbuild your stations.

    PH
     
  6. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    Interesting points all-round gentlemen, I am reminded of J.I.C. Boyd's take on authenticity and progress in railway preservation from his 1988 book "Talyllyn Railway";

    I quote:

    " If in 1951 the group which formed the "Preservation Society" had intended that the Railway ( with all that this means in terms of the past ), should be so halted in time that beside such obvious features of trains and track, the actual raison d'etre for the Railway being in existence would be retained, then theirs was A Lost Cause before it began. For to measure the railway of the past in terms of the tourist business of today, is not only to fail to grasp a World-picture now wholly eradicated, but to miss the very lifestyle of our forebears; in that unfortunate event the Railway today can only be measured as just another tourist attraction."

    Surely, a lament for a railway now disappeared for being "over-preserved". I, for one, can't criticise what has been achieved on many of our Heritage Railways, but, that authenticity that we seek at every visit to any railway will inevitably be eroded over time, if not by the railway itself, but also, the adjacent environment; whether by such as the hideous Snowdon Wharf development at Porthmadog or the apparel worn by the paying customers, you know, the "athlete" look replete with "trainers" as worn by that tattooed bloater from the West Midlands, as for camo with a hi-vis.....

    There is only one thing in life that is certain - change. Thankfully, within Railway Preservation, most of the changes that we have seen are unbelievably positive. However, that very special "moment", when the right circumstance coalesce into an immersion into a bygone age - these are getting very few and far between these days due to the gradual addition of "stuff"; I noticed a new fence across the end of the platform at Castle Caereinion a few days ago, probably necessary, but it all goes to chip away at that special moment. Grab those moments whilst you can chaps!!

    Cheers

    Alan
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  7. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Like all things in life, over zealous actions, the use of rose tinted spectacles et al can lead to silly situations which the public see but are, in the main, too polite to comment upon. I have noticed a few smiles on occasions.

    I don't know whether this happens today on this particular railway I mention - I haven't been there since some 'jobsworth' in a peaked cap pounced on me informing me that I could not park where I has stopped. I had stopped briefly, to ask him the time of the next train! - but on one of their smaller stations they had a blazing fire in the booking office although it was a hot day in August.
    Their reason was "oh! the Americans like to see it". In the quite rural part they are situated, they are not a heavily patronized station, I guess they would be lucky if they saw more than one American, or two, per week!
     
  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    This goes along with the installation of a barrier crossing here. Not everyone will approve but those who flag trains across the road trying to ascertain if that road vehicle is actually going to stop or not will have different views. Along with lavatories at the termini (believe it or not the revived W&LLR had no proper sanitation at all fifty years ago) it is something which just had to come. All this is expensive


    However I am absolutely unrepentant about deploring over-built stations and mainline type trains on branch railways. The "big four" Welsh narrow gauge lines can all field either authentic or good facsimiles of trains from their classic eras. Precious few standard gauge ones can and whether or not some members of the public can tell the difference between steam and diesel is not the point.

    PH
     
  9. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Even if you don't like it PH, surely you must understand the reasons, a railway will not want to turn customers away so will form larger trains, requiring the use of larger engines.
     
  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I have my doubts. An H class on a push/pull working or a Pannier on two coaches may be archetypal branch line trains but such trains just wouldn't cope with the demand on many railways. In many ways the heritage railway movement has become a victim of its own success. There was a time when short trains and small locos sufficed but things have changed a lot over the years.
     
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  11. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    We have been here before! Nearly all, perhaps all, heritage railways have a 25m.p.h. speed limit and few, apart from perhaps the N.Y.M.R., have need for something capable of sustaining 1000d.b.h.p. They run such machines because they want to rather than because they have to.

    PH
     
  12. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Yes we have, I don't think we agreed then, I doubt we shall now - all I'll say is we talked at length about economy of coal consumption and no one really knew the most economical answer.
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Some lines don't have too much choice. It all boils down to what's available. There's hardly an oversupply of locos in working order. To replace the class 6/7/8 fleet with class 5 or smaller will take a long, long time. Also do not underestimate the pulling power (pun intended) of a large named loco as far as the general public is concerned.
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think you are probably in a minority of not much more than one on that score, though. Narrow gauge may be a bit different (not really my thing) but amongst standard gauge, those few lines which have tried to use continental locos or rolling stock haven't exactly been markedly successful doing so. (And by "success", I'd define it three ways: not just the public, but volunteers and donors. You have to appeal to all three).

    There is also the availability question. A rough finger in the air estimate is that, across the country, heritage railways are putting out somewhere in the region of 20,000 seats on a typical weekend day. However much we might like lighter vintage rolling stock rather than Mark 1s, there simply aren't 20,000 seats worth of vintage stock available - nor the capacity to restore it if it were available. Often, running a preserved railway is the art of the possible, not the desirable.

    Tom
     
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  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Actually I half agree but only half! People chose to rescue the "big stuff" so that is what tends to be available, which is financially unfortunate in the long term.

    PH
     
  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I agree with Tom, continental locos have very little interest on SG in the UK, in much the same way that UK locos hold very little interest outside the UK - witness the neglected A4s from America - they weren't really interested in them so didn't care for them. Contrary to your belief PH, various locos do make a difference not just with enthusiasts but the general public.
     
  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Is it unfortunate? If an owning group can fund the restoration and subsequent overhauls of a "big un," that's a fair chunk of money that the operating railway doesn't have to find.
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's not really true, is it? To a very large extent, what was preserved is what was in Barry - big, medium or small. The reason that a lot of heritage railways are dominated by the larger designs (especially GW / SR / LMS and BR Standards) is that those were the locos in Barry, not least because those were the locos still in service at the end of steam. If BR had been running lots of standard class 2MTs in 1965-68, rather than lots of 9Fs and Bulleid pacifics, standard gauge heritage lines would be stuffed with standard 2s. To a large degree, the fact that they are not was not conscious choice by preservationists in the 1960s / 1970s, but simply the consequence of what was in Barry.

    Tom
     
  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Oh yes it is! When we have all been sprinkled over the trackside a succeeding generation is likely to say "Bloody old fools, lumbering us with things far too large for the job which we can't afford to keep up". This argument that owning groups somehow "save" operating railways money is a strange one. The latter have to pay hire fees etc. and the bigger the machine the larger the fees have to be or should be if adequate provision is to be made for long term expenses. Why pay for something bigger than you need or can afford?

    I would much prefer operating equipment to be under the ownership of railway operating companies or at least under long term lease to them. (Yes I know all this is straying from the thread!)
    PH
     
  20. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    As do most when you start up again :p

    It is saving money for heritage railways, we all know and I'm sure you've moaned about it too that locos never recoup the cost of their next 10 yearly, it just doesn't happen. So from the railway's point of view it is cheaper hiring a loco than having to pay for its overhaul every 10 years (plus anything in between)
     

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