If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Useful Tips for Carriage and Wagon Restorers

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by toplight, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Definitely! And obviously whenever anyone walks past me with brush in hand they'll tell me I've spelt it wrong even if I haven't, just to frighten me... :rolleyes:
     
    Bluenosejohn and richards like this.
  2. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    2,413
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Taunton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Here is a photo of a roof hoop made up of 4 lengths of ash wood and a short piece at the cant rail end. The ash was steamed and then clamped to shape until cold when at a later date the four hoop sections were glued together and the end section added. DSCF3196.jpg
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  3. Graham Phillips

    Graham Phillips New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    A truck mechanic's life is the life for me.
    Location:
    About half way between Bewdley & Arley on the SVR
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    How do you steam your timber? I've heard of people rigging up a wallpaper stripper so the steam flows through a pipe with the timber inside. I guess that must be safer than trying to improvise a pressure vessel.
     
  4. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    2,413
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Taunton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You mean like this one where you can just see the box on the right hand side where the steamed timber is been taken out of which is heated with a wallpaper stripper. The photo I have just posted is made up from some of the hoops made by this steam box.
     
  5. nick813

    nick813 Well-Known Member Loco Owner

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    poole dorset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I have done this using a wallpaper steamer for making a Yurt. The ash has to be 'wet'....non seasoned or it will not bend. They do not always go according to plan. The ash can split easily. Let the steaming process take its time....and remember that the timber will be bl**dy hot when it is removed.....:)
     
  6. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,351
    Likes Received:
    1,288
    Location:
    Swindon, England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think if that was me with those laminations I would be tempted to screw through them from the top and bottom to hold the laminations together, not just rely on the glue alone, or you could use say threaded rod instead.
     
  7. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    352
    Occupation:
    Restoration of heritage items, mainly in timber.
    Location:
    Haltwhistle
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    When we did the ash "cane" bend around the Sentinel's cab roof, we used a wall-paper stripper feeding into an insulated tube (piece of plastic drain, actually) ... and everybody acted PDQ to get it bent around and fastened in place.

    [​IMG]
    SSW - cane bend fitted
    par StoneRoad2013, on Ipernity

    I should have an image of laminating roof sticks, somewhere, but I think it is on the dead hard drive ...
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  8. Michael Proctor

    Michael Proctor New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle upon Tyne
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    When we use plywood for either floors or exterior surfaces, we first fill any goods in the edges with marine epoxy with added microbeads, then apply 2 coats of marine epoxy. You need to protect the edges of each face withth masking tape and sand lightly between coats. It requires a bit of effort but is very effective at sealing the edges and protecting against delamination. One of our number is also a boat restored, so if it's good enough for boats, it should do for the coach.
     
    Bluenosejohn and Sawdust like this.
  9. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I once painted "Emergency Ligting Point" on the solebar of a Mark 1 and was halfway through the last word before being interrupted by the roars of laughter behind from my most sympathetic of colleagues! It was that day that I discovered how easy it was to let the most obvious errors through the net if you have your face pressed up against it, you stop looking at the words and only look at the individual letters!

    Sent from my HTC Desire 620 using Tapatalk
     
  10. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,634
    Likes Received:
    1,921
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Sorry for reminding you of that! I'm sure there are plenty of others who have done the same thing.
     
    M59137 likes this.
  11. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    2392 likes this.
  12. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But surely that would put a string of weak spots in the timbers, and might result in a slight kink where each screw hole was, rather than having a smooth curve? I remember seeing photos of tests on Cascamite glue when I built a plywood canoe some years ago, and they showed that if a joint made with that glue was pushed to breaking point, it was the wood that failed, not the glue. In fact, Cascamite is still advertised with that promise.
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  13. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,351
    Likes Received:
    1,288
    Location:
    Swindon, England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Remember as the wood is being bent, it may still exert quite a lot of pressure to try and pull itself back towards straight again. You could use also thickish panel pins instead of screws. I can't say about the Cascamite glue as I have never tried it, plus remember dampness etc might affect it over time. Not sure what glue they used. Originally they weren't laminated at all but made in one piece although they must have needed a lot of pressure to force it into shape, although the drawing shows a sawcut at the tightest part. The original drawing of them is below, although the dimensions might be different :-

    58559 590x580 Carriage Roof Sticks 1919.jpg
     
  14. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    352
    Occupation:
    Restoration of heritage items, mainly in timber.
    Location:
    Haltwhistle
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We did s similar test with the then fairly new foamy stuff, as getting hold of decent cascamite in economical quantities was proving difficult.
    http://www.ipernity.com/doc/312383/album/406353
    Again, it was the wood that failed, not the glue at the joint.
    We still glue and screw structural timber.

    Some years subsequently, we were told by a supplier that some brands had a definite "shelf life" and whilst usable past that date, as they still appear to "work" structural joints are not a good idea.
     
  15. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    884
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    With regard to relying on glue alone, it really depends on how much trust you have in the adhesive you use.

    Twenty years ago I used Cascamite glue quite a lot, except for teak which it didn't stick to because of it's waxy nature. I then progressed on to polyurethane adhesive and some use of Extraphen.

    This changed after we recruited a retired boat builder to the team at Pickering a few years ago. Now I'm always open to new ideas and the exchange of techniques and during a discussion on glue, Mike sold me on the West System epoxy resin wood glue. LNERCA and myself now use this extensively. The resin is mixed with fibres, which also makes it very forgiving, if the fit between your jointing surfaces is not absolutely perfect. For me the defining moment came after making a repair to the cant rail on ECJS 189 using epoxy and no screws, I found I needed to coach screw a carline down on to the cant rail and the centre of the screw fell directly on the glue joint. Even with a pilot hole a coach screw exerts a lot of pressure and it felt totally solid as it was being screwed into solid timber.

    Another area where the West System has succeeded, where other adhesives have failed is in glueing together the foot of
    a pillar, which is sound except for where knee iron bolts have corroded and split it. In the past I have tried to repair these using all the other adhesives mentioned but the only that has worked is the epoxy, which has held several of these repairs without needing any screws.

    Sawdust.
     
    Wenlock and 2392 like this.
  16. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No; once it's cured, Cascamite isn't affected by water, even in the long term. That's why the canoe kit makers strongly advised that we used it. The canoes were in use by the youth club for years, and came in for some very rough handling,but none of the glued joints gave any trouble at all.
     

Share This Page