Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Foxhunter, Jan 30, 2018.
I think it is mate. I think the V4 would be a fantastic new build personally.
Definitely not in Ace Enginemen, I've just finished reading that... And a damn good read it was too!
Latest news from 'The Trust'
cue another round of Name/Paint/ Build or buy or restore something else instead froth...
V4 design reaches pre-launch stage
We are pleased to announce that we have formed a new subsidiary, The V4 Steam Locomotive Company Limited, to carry out the building of our third new steam locomotive – the yet-to-be-named new Gresley class V4 No. 3403 – as part of its preparations for the formal launch of the project. We can also confirm that we have acquired over 500 original class V4 drawings from Malcolm Barlow, a Doncaster scrap dealer who launched the now defunct Gresley V4 Society in 1994 to build a new example of the class.
The London and North Eastern Railway (LNER) class V4 was a class of 2-6-2 steam locomotive designed by Sir Nigel Gresley – who also designed world-famous No. 4472 Flying Scotsman and world speed record holder No. 4468 Mallard – for mixed-traffic use. It was Gresley’s last design for the LNER before he died in 1941. The class V4s had similarities in their appearance and mechanical layout to the class V2s of which pioneer No. 4771 Green Arrow is preserved as a part of the National Collection. The class V2s, introduced in 1936, had limited route availability and the class V4 was a lightweight alternative, suitable for use over the whole of the LNER network.
Two locomotives were built at the LNER’s Doncaster Works in 1941. The first locomotive, No. 3401 Bantam Cock, had a scaled-down version of the Gresley Pacific boiler with a grate area of 27½ sq ft. Its tractive effort of 27,000 lbs was produced by boiler pressure of 250 psi and three cylinders of 15in diameter. The second locomotive, No. 3402, incorporated a fully welded steel firebox and a single thermic syphon for water circulation. It was not named, but was known unofficially as Bantam Hen. The class was tried on the Great Eastern section of the LNER, and was well received, with more power than the existing Gresley class B17 4-6-0s and better riding qualities. It was anticipated that many more would be produced, but after the sudden death of Gresley in April 1941 and his succession by Edward Thompson, no more were built. Instead, the simpler two-cylinder Thompson class B1 4-6-0 was adopted as the LNER’s standard mixed-traffic locomotive and 410 were built between 1942 and 1952. The two locomotives were sent to Scotland for use on the West Highland Line, although their wheel arrangement was not particularly suitable for the line’s steep gradients. The two class V4s were renumbered Nos. 1700/1 in 1946 and later became British Railways Nos. 61700/1. Both locomotives were scrapped in 1957 when their boilers became due for renewal.
At its Silver Jubilee Convention in October 2015, The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust announced that it would follow its Peppercorn class A1 4-6-2 No. 60163 Tornado and Gresley class P2 2-8-2 No. 2007 Prince of Wales with the construction of further extinct LNER steam locomotives – a Gresley class V4 2-6-2, a Gresley class V3 2-6-2T and a Gresley class K3 2-6-0. At its Annual Convention in September 2017, the Trust confirmed that it has started work identifying and scanning the original drawings for the Gresley class V4 at the National Railway Museum in York in order that the design book for new locomotive could be created within 3D Computer Aided Design (CAD).
In January 2018, the Trust revealed that it had acquired and taken delivery of a complete set of fully-certified tyres for the new Gresley class V4’s pony, Cartazzi and 5ft 8in driving wheels. They were purchased from David Buck, owner of Thompson class B1 4-6-0 No. 61306 Mayflower, along with a chimney, two BR class 08 shunter speedometer drive generators and two two-stage single spindle air pumps of Finnish origin including lubricator pumps and check valves for use on No. 2007. The tyres were originally manufactured in South Africa in the late 1990s for Malcolm Barlow, a Doncaster scrap dealer who launched the Gresley V4 Society in 1994 to build a new example of the class. David Buck acquired the parts six months ago in a job lot of items that Malcolm Barlow had salvaged from Doncaster Works on its closure – including a number of class B1 components.
Mark Allatt, Trustee, The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust, commented, “We are now in the pre-launch phase of the project to build our third new main line steam locomotive, with the formation of The V4 Steam Locomotive Company to actually build No. 3403, the opening of both the company and charitable bank accounts and the detailed review of over 500 acquired drawings.
“We want to be ready to start assembling our new Gresley class V4 as soon as our new class P2 is completed. If we’re in our new and much larger base at Whessoe Road by then – and there’s a good chance we will be – we could even start work on No. 3403 before No. 2007 Prince of Wales steams in 2021. We anticipate the project costing around £3m and taking around five years subject to the pace of fundraising. Our new Gresley class V4 is an ideal locomotive for regional main line tours, repeat main line itineraries and the longer, main line connected heritage railways.
“Unlike the class P2, where we have had to do a considerable amount of development work to complete the job that Sir Nigel Gresley started in 1934, there will be very little redesign work needed as there were no known problems with the Gresley class V4s.
“Although there is no specific appeal open for No. 3403 yet, any donations made towards it will be ring-fenced for the project. The next steps will be to launch a website for the project and The Founder’s Club to fund the early stages of the project. More announcements will be made during 2018 as the project builds up steam.”
Looks like another raid on my pension fund coming soon then .........
Truly - what a time to be alive and an LNER enthusiast. My cup runneth over!
Very interesting. I wish them well, but I hope they are not being over-ambitious. Completing the P2 and then keeping that and Tornado operational in the future will require a substantial regular income stream. On top of that they are planning to develop a new site on Whessoe Road and refurbish a set of coaches to their own specification. The potential market for steam charters is not unlimited.
Think the market for tours/land cruises run in clean, comfortable stock is undiminished, and probably the way forward.
Best of luck to them, although judging by past performance, they don't need it!!!
Once all completed the shed at Whessoe Road is going to be some visitor attraction.
If ever there's a group that could, my money's on the A1 lot! I think the V4's a great idea. By all accounts an ideal loco for the majority of preserved lines but also capable of doing something on the big railway too!
In apple green that V4 is a looker!
Let's not start a livery debate!
Bantam Harrier in apple green.
The thing is, it makes sense to do a V4 next when parts already exist for it. The V3 and K3 - both excellent choices that fill more gaps - haven't got the same amount of prep pre-existing as the V4 has. Tyres, chimney, drawings - off to a flying start in many respects.
I - personally - think there's an argument for buying one of the extant, unrestored LNER group standard tenders out there and restoring it first to help push the project along, but off the top of my head I recall the V4 tender wasn't a standard wheelbase size (13ft long?) I think so that may be a complete non starter.
Then there's the history/liveries/etc. The V4 was probably Gresley's finest design in reality, just built at entirely the wrong time. I can't think of another locomotive design that packs quite the punch the V4 does with that route availability - maybe a Manor?
Yes. "We" should definitely be building more Manors.
Ok, I'm outa here!
Statistics show that many of the P2 project supporters were new and not previous A1 supporters, and im sure there is some hope that this project will bring its own new faces /pockets I will find the Marketing direction it will take quite intriguing.
We already know that the naming policy of the trust has little to do with provenance. My suggestion 'Marmion' therefore is unlikely
Apple green is a nailed on (but an inauthentic BR green would be Handsome)
The predictable Mods will be Roller Bearings, composite cylinder block construction, steel firebox, electronics, re prioritised tender capacities.
Still open to debate - Thermic Syphon ? Single Kylchap ? Changes to the boiler to increase commonality with V3 ?
Thermic syphon seems like a good idea - it worked on Bantam Hen. On the drafting, I was always a bit surprised that the V4 didn't have a double chimney/double Klychap arrangment given its power.
No it didn't.
3402's boiler was completely replaced in 1945 due to the recurrent issues of stay cracking, suspected to be because of the thermic siphon arrangement - the only notable difference between it and Bantam Cock's (aside from the difference in material for the firebox).
There's not any space in the smokebox for anything bigger than the single chimney arrangement - certainly there are no complaints of shy steaming or draughting issues from that I can find in my books, so the bugger question is would a double chimney have been necessary? None of the engines below the size of the Pacifics on the LNER were fitted with a double chimney.
Every day is school day on NatPres! Given that the syphons worked pretty well on BPs, do we know why it appears not to have worked on Bantam Hen?
Anyone's guess really Tobbes - there are people far more qualified than me who could say. I suspect the material differences (i.e. copper to steel stays plus the different temperature cycles with a thermic siphon) probably contributed to the issues.
The siphons didn't exactly work perfectly on the Bulleid Pacifics either, as I recall - weren't many of them removed entirely from a portion of the boilers?
The siphons weren't perfect and have caused issues, but I've never heard of them being removed in toto.
To be pernickety, that depends on whether you regard a V2 as being below the size to a pacific! Weren't a small number of V2s fitted in the dying days of East Coast steam?
Also, I don't think modifications to the V$ boiler to make it more compatible with the V3 would be very feasible - the V3 was a narrow firebox design, the V4 wide firebox.
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