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Wagon I.D.

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by Steve, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    When the Hunslet engine Co's works closed soem 20 years ago the Middleton Railway acquired two flat wagons that had been used for internal transport. These have since been used for storage in the interim. 2015 marks the 50th anniversary of the founding of Hunslet and the railway deemed it a good idea to restore one of these wagons to it's Hunslet green livery. The wagon chosen is, however, intriguing us and I wondered if anyone can shed any light on its origins. Unlike the other wagon, it is not a standard RCH underframe. It has fat axleboxes; three of which are marked Wrigley Bulwell with the fourth of different design and unmarked. The wheelsets are split spokes, one of which has a name cast in the hub (but I have forgotten what it says!) The buffers are fairly short with a tapered housing and coil springs. The underframe itself is of fairly conventional riveted construction but there are no discernible rolling marks. The wagon carried a thin brass engraved plate on one side saying 'Hunslet Engine Co. Owners 1953' and no other identification plates. In fact, there are no holes in the solebars where an old plate may have been attached. There are the remains of Tee irons on the buffer beams so it seems that it has been cut down from an open wagon or similar, possibly even a box van as there is no evidence of lashing hooks ever being provided on the solebars.
    Having fat boxes and these buffers we initially thought it must be an old vehicle. However, the W irons are flame cut and the brake cross shaft is of welded construction. It has been suggested that Hunslet may have built the wagon themselves but, surely, it would have been a much cheaper exercise to buy an old wagon chassis, as with the other flat wagon. The cut down Tee bars also tend to indicate that it had an earlier life.
    Any ideas as to its origins would be gratefully received.
    DSC_0142.JPG DSC_0142.JPG DSC_0143.JPG DSC_0145.JPG
     

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  2. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    It will be good if you can get some over all dimensions for this wagon as the brake leave in the photo is odd for most PO wagons as the one in the photo is a slot link which seems to be used on longer wagons and only seem to came into use in the mid 30's when grease (fat) axleboxes were only on old stock as after 1923 when the new RCH drawings come out they were all oil axleboxes. So is it a internal built wagon using some second hand parts from a redundant wagon.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I'll try and remember to get some basic dimensions tomorrow. Thanks for the thoughts.
     
  4. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    You're not going to run it with the springs like that, are you?

    I'm inclined to agree it's a "bitsa", particularly since the older components seem to be bolted on rather than riveted.
     
  5. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Try googling and y0u should find some mention of Rigleys wagon works at Bulwell Notts.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Having run the rule over it, it measures 18'-0¾" over headstocks (not buffers) and is 10'-0" wheelbase.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The springs will receive a coat of looking at, along with the rest of the running gear. However, it will only be used within the yard at a max speed of about 5 mph. It's main use is storage. The frames would need a fair bit of work to make them fit for regular running.
    Most of the kit is riveted together. The only bolted on bit are the brakegear.
     
  8. Ken_R

    Ken_R Member

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    I hadn't noticed. Well spotted.

    They need more than a 'coat of looking at'. Typically, semi-elliptical springs have 'spring hangers' at both ends. I can remember some instances, in road vehicles, where there was a 'spring eye' at one end, and a 'slipper' arrangement at the other, but that wouldn't work within the parameters of a vertically confined axle box. From Photo 1, it appears that to the right, the spring might be secured by an 'eye' anchorage. As to the other end, it is unclear. If you have eye bolts at both ends then the spring is unable to deflect and you effectively have a rigid structure.

    Additionally, with Railway vehicles, the nut, and any locking device, should be to the 'outside' so as to be visibly apparent.
     
  9. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    The arrangement in to photos is typical of many wagon springs. The upper ends of the springs are free to slide on the slippers secured to the underside of the solebars. The bolt merely locates the spring end very loosely. The buckles location in the top of the axlebox ensures that the spring stays central. Agree that the nuts should be on the outside :)
     
  10. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    Looking what is shown in the photos is a 8T wagon as there are only 4 leaf springs, grease axleboxes and early type of buffers. Far later type of brakes with drop link cross shaft looks like brakes on one side only? and a steal underframe 18' long wagon so nothing adds up to a standard wagon.

    More I look at it I think to me it will be a classic case of "One I have built earlier"
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Brakes are on both sides, connected by a cross shaft and acting on all four wheels. As I said, the brake shaft and associated levers is of welded construction.
    It has been suggested that it was built by Hunslet but it doesn't really make much sense. Why go to the extent of so doing when wagon underframes were two a penny and the second flat wagon was obviously from this source. Why, also, would you rivet on Tee bars at the end that only protruded about 3" above the buffer beam?
    I've had a look at the wheelsets today. One set is unmarked but the second set has cast in both hubs ?????? Forge Warrington 1897. After a bit of Googling, it might be Dallam Forge, but not certain.
     
  12. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    To be clear, my comment on the springs was referring to the layer of rust between the leaves. I have a box van suffering the same affliction and will be getting them refurbished, but I don't yet know at what cost!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    So what about Hunslet wanting a flat wagon, and having some parts in stock from a old wagon so they got the apprentice to build one from scratch to test their skills.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That's been considered and is a possibility although people who worked there in the latter days don't think so. Hunslet were good at fitting makers plates and there's no sign of any having existed. There's also the matter of the short pieces of Tee iron riveted to the buffer beams at the end. They do nothing as they are, so why fit them? More likely they were to support a timber end and have been cut back.

    Again, thanks for your thoughts.
     
  15. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    Are there any holes which shows if there was planks used for a floor.
     
  16. Richard Pike

    Richard Pike New Member

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    There were planks laid across between edging channels. I've added; I hope some more pictures 10933821_928584710499742_4057195210928149428_n.jpg 983854_942087699149443_5448638947989387083_n.jpg 10923535_931352743556272_1615770654040044461_n.jpg 10933790_928042963887250_1570904972111632967_n.jpg
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As Richard has posted, the vehicle was planked. We have removed them because they were basically rotten. The planks were bolted to the top of the solebars.
     
  18. K14

    K14 Member

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    The tee-bars don't look cut-down to my eye, they look as though they were intended to be that height - possibly as retainers for the floorboards on a flat wagon, although that then begs the question 'why not extend the curb rail all round then?'.
    The underframe's condition looks to be too good for a greasebox/split spoke era wagon too. Is there a date stamped anywhere on the axles?

    The bitsa approach smacks of dockyard practice to me; the 813 Fund's Twin Bolster 'Mites' pair at Didcot exhibit several anomalies that originated at Chatham, notably a partial set of curious top-loading oil boxes and a set of Fox's Patent Pressed Steel buffers.

    In the world of Internal User wagons, anything goes.
     
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