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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    I do not think the identity of the SDRT will be lost. Changed certainly, and hopefully given the chance to flourish in new circumstances. The rolling stock in the possession of the SDRT has some items that would stand out in any collection.

    Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
     
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  2. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    You may read it that way, but that is not what it says if you read it with an unbias mind. They say that they cannot guarantee that they will have the necessary funds by the time that the overhaul becomes due in 2025. Nowhere does it say that they will not pay if those funds are to hand. I read it as being honest about the bleak financial position that prevailed at the time of the warning, which was about 18 months ago if I remember rightly. Why not just leave them to negotiate the most advantageous deal that is possible to the benefit of all parties. Financial circumstances do change over time, so all may not be lost.

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  3. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    The contractual agreement for the loco is that the WSR Plc overhaul it/rebuild it for the SDRT to notional similar condition to which it was restored previously at the end of the previous agreement.

    It is the final part of the current agreement.

    There is then no new agreement in place as to further commitments; the agreement being heavy ended on the part of the WSR plc to do their bit to honour the contract at it's conclusion.

    'Use the loco, then overhaul it/rebuild it, and then the agreement ends'

    I would suggest the WSR plc board have sought inappropriately to divest itself of an expensive contractual commitment, and by means that have shocked the whole preservation movement.
     
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  4. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Member

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    And look what problems not meeting contractual obligations has had for the Llangollen railway. The claims recently brought against the engineering side of the business by loco owners seem to have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
     
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  5. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    You do love telling people what to do.

    There is an irony in you telling me to read with an unbiased mind considering what you think I have said and what I have said.

    I said that the WSR appears to be trying to move from a run and overhaul to overhaul and run.

    Steve came in and started accusing people of conspiracy theories and that the WSR had never said they wouldn't overhaul 53808. Oddly, I had never said that they wouldn't.

    I dug out the quote from the Pines Express. I read it as won't because they can't. Hardly a conspiracy theory but a reflection of the financial reality. Has that changed, maybe, does that mean that the WSR PLC will be in a hurry to do so, don't know. I suspect not because as the deal stands it isn't in their favour which was my original point and they may leverage the lack of alternatives to get a deal they consider more advantageous to themselves, because in say 2038 the next overhaul will be someone else's problem.
     
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  6. Bayard

    Bayard Part of the furniture

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    There is no "most advantageous deal that is possible to the benefit of all parties". The Plc have three options: firstly to fulfil their contractural obligations by overhauling the loco when it becomes due for overhaul at no cost to the S&DRT, secondly to renege on the deal in whole or in part, by either making the overhaul dependent on a further running agreement, or making the S&DRT pay for part of it (outwith any fees they may be earning on the MHR) and thirdly to get out of the deal by folding the company.
     
  7. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    Did the original agreement say anything at all about what would happen after the overhaul? The PLC might well be willing to pay for the overhaul (in house or elsewhere) in exchange for an agreement for the loco to run on the WSR for some more years. That would of course depend not only on the parties being able to come to an agreement (despite a history of conflict) but also on whether the PLC actually considers the loco a desirable one to have on the line. There have been some suggestions that it is extremely suitable but also some suggestions that the PLC may prefer Great Western locos.
     
  8. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    Might I suggest that the first issue is bound to be 'Does the PLC have the money to pay for the overhaul' Given what it put in the public domain' followed by Covid my suggestion might be that even if it intended to honour its contractual obligations it may be prevented from doing so by not having the money.
     
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  9. Bayard

    Bayard Part of the furniture

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    They only really "don't have the money" if to overhaul the locomotive would force them into liquidation. Otherwise it's just a question of priorities, i.e. reneging on the deal.
     
  10. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Personally, i don't think the PLC will be able to pay for any overhaul, i can't see them having the funds, blame covid, blame bad management, blame who you like, then of course, its down to the S&D Trust, do they pursue the PLC, and put the WSR into Liquidation? or come to a deal with the MHR, to overhaul 53808, with an agreement, to base it there for the next ten years, and in doing so break all ties with the WSR. ?
     
  11. free2grice

    free2grice Well-Known Member Friend

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    The WSR have made it abundantly clear that there ain't no money left in the kitty for the overhaul of 53808. The Mid-Hants Railway has offered the S&D Trust a new home and made them very welcome.
    After the way in which the Trust has been treated by the WSR management why would they even consider returning their 7F to West Somerset? <BJ>
     
  12. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think there’s more grey in it than that. However, I’d hoped that the S&D wars were behind us, with armistice signed and work underway on a peace treaty. Let’s give credit to the S&DRT trust leadership in their judgement on the trustworthiness of the WSR plc, and hope that they can come to a sustainable deal, for the sake of both organisations.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  13. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    But why should the S&DRT have to make a new deal with the WSR PLC when there is already a deal in place?

    I don't see how and why a new deal, in which for fulfilling their previous obligations, is going to result in the money suddenly appearing. Moreover, it merely serves to reward bad behaviour and reneging on deals. So what so every time it is coming up to pay for an overhaul they can turn their pockets out and say no cash, and then in return for running the loco for another (getting say another 5 years out of the loco) it is 'now we have the money'.

    If you have the money to overhaul the loco, you have the money to overhaul the loco, if you don't then you don't and a new deal isn't going to change that.

    I would hope but doubt that the WSR PLC will uphold the original deal and if they won't that the S&DRT would be able to strike a deal with a more reputable organisation than the WSR PLC, however, I accept that if the WSR PLC won't uphold the original deal and there is no other alternative and the risk is that 53808 spends 20 years in a siding, then as a last resort a new deal with the WSR PLC is better than no deal. (But as we can see from other areas of life a deal might be better than no deal but a **** deal is still a **** deal).
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  14. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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  15. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I'm a bit reluctant to comment any more here as anything I say seems to upset @Magic Monkey which I promise is not my intention.

    However what he sees as a new "deal" is possibly a sensible extension of the current "deal", rather than a replacement of it. I guess the current agreement is now about ten years old and takes them to the upcoming overhaul. Everybody's circumstances have changed during the last decade, but it is only natural that thoughts should turn to planning now for the post overhaul future of the loco. Is it surprising that such planning discussions should involve the WSR given the circumstances. For all their faults I really don't think that a "deal" with the WSR equates to a "deal" with the devil.

    I for one am happy to let the very competent management of the S&DRT get on with negotiating for the best deal that they can get for the loco, but far be it for me to suggest that anyone else does likewise:).

    Peter
     
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  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    One thing just occurred to me, If the PLC, Were to be replaced by another organisation the operating arm of a new charity, as has been the plan, for the WSR, Won't any agreements between the old PLC, and another group become void, because the organisation no longer exists. Could the new operating company , say to the S&D Trust, We are not bound by the old agreement,
     
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  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    But if the WSR PLC has no money to fund the overhaul 53808 without an extension on the running contract, then how and where is it going to get the money to fund the overhaul if there is an extension on the contract?

    Let me give you an allegory:

    You live in a house, you are part of a family. The owner of the house is very poor with a tendency to go down the pub, drink too much and pick fights. After forty years they decide to kick you out of the house because they want your room. Eventually they relent slightly and allow you to keep the cupboard but you have to move out anyway.

    Alongside this, for the last 10 years they have been borrowing your vintage car. The deal has been that in return for using your car they agree to maintain it. Now, it is coming up for some major repairs and they claim that they don't have the money for the repairs, but if you agree to let them have the car for another 5 years then they will be able to fix the car. They argue that there is no one else who will fix the car and it is them or your car being stuck in a garage for the next 20 years.

    If someone said to me 'oh yes, I've agreed to let them have the car for another 5 years' I would be 'Are you sure that is wise?'. Would you really be 'yes this is an excellent idea'?

    PS Don't flatter yourself. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  18. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    That seems to me a valid question, but we can at least hope that the process of setting up of the new company under the new or expanded owning charity will deal appropriately with all of the old PLC's rights and obligations.

    Edit: corrected a typo
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  19. Bayard

    Bayard Part of the furniture

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    In order to be able to hang on to the operating licence, they have to remain the same company, so they would not be able to "change the name and do the same".
     
  20. Bayard

    Bayard Part of the furniture

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    How is it sensible to make a deal with a company that has both evicted you from your home of 40 years and said that it will be unable to fulfil the terms of the last deal that they made with you? The only sensible deal the S&DRT can make is to get their loco overhauled then hire it out on a mileage basis.
     
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