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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    >>> "A heritage railway in Somerset will run out of money and be forced to close unless urgent fundraising takes place...."

    A rather meaningless statement IMHO. Unless you raise funds, then of course you will run out of money sometime, that's business. The key issues are (a) how much funding is necessary and (b) how quickly?
     
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  2. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    Exactly, but there is a niche below that that I will support as well though - the sort of small set-up that says 'it's grim, we haven't got much money, we are in survival mode' but where you don't think that's mismanagement.

    In my own case that doesn't apply to any of the railways I support but I could see myself being sympathetic if it came up. As it is:

    L&B - carriage reconstruction, new build engines, Parracombe, Chelfham etc
    SVR - new engine shed, innovative approaches to itineraries, making the best of it (or at least trying to)
    N&L - doors for the engine shed, progress at Boughton, arrival of the Mk3s etc

    I can understand progress being limited but none of those three have stood still (and they are wildly different set ups from each other)
     
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  3. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    And (c) Why is the funding required? Most appeals by railways have a purpose, to overhaul a loco, to repair a bridge, to extend her line, to survive the covid lockdown etc etc. The WSR’s appeal is very vague, we need £1M or we’ll close. I think most donors require more detail than that before handing over their cash.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  4. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    More to the point do we have confidence in the management of the line?
     
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  5. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    The thing is, there have been many posts (including mine) that say the same thing. The appeal is vague and the lack of clarity puts them off donating.

    While Nat Pres is not the definitive view of everyone, I do think the number of posts making the same comments is perhaps a representative sample of a wider group of potential donators view, which so far seems to be ignored.
    The lack of clarity of the appeal doesn’t make you feel confident. I am waiting to be wowed, however I may be in for a long wait.
     
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  6. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Trouble is ..... The change we all see is needed cannot come from outside , it needs to come from within and that was clearly rejected last year . The persecution of the proponents is clearly designed to ward off a repeat

    How bad to things have to become for those on the ground to appreciate they are being led on a highly perilous path by those who seem to lack the experience, nous, leadership to navigate it

    Will it take a Llangollen moment to give the WSR the kick needed ? Could that moment be tomorrow, next month, next year . A line cannot lurch from crisis to crisis . It seems inevitable and the messaging sets up the scapegoats if it happens , be that you and I for not donating , the CRF for not given them more money etc

    The even dafter thing is there is excellent wisdom available from other lines to help the WSR chart a better course but it feels to an outsider that for the WSR it is their way and no other
     
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  7. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    There’s the right way or the Somerset way it seems, not a new problem either which makes it more amazing they haven’t learnt from it.
     
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  8. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Fair point. Most railways have appeals for 'something' rather than just to run the railway that seems to be its pitch.

    So if the WSR needs money to run the railway, then ergo it's business model is flawed. That means it's not a viable concern or am I missing something?
     
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not as far as I can see
     
  10. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    The WSR may be one of the more extreme examples but in terms of its business model its shares a challenge that the pandemic has forced other heritage railways to confront. It's highly unlikely, even with volunteer labour, that operating surpluses from running trains and commercial trading can generate the money needed to run a heritage railway sustainably. That shortfall tends to be exacerbated by the length of the line ( a combination of being unable to charge realistic distance related fares and the fact that there's a lot more expensive infrastructure to maintain).
    Closing the gap between annual surpluses and the cost of keeping the railway operational depends on discretionary income in the form of grants, donations, bequests etc. On top of that there is, hopefully, investment in developments such as those highlighted on here as being worthy of support. However some discretionary financial support is needed just to keep a railway viable. If donations are only made for development projects there is a risk that a railway will consistently under invest in the less glamorous work essential for its survival. In terms of whether donations could end up potentially benefiting creditors it makes no difference what they are given for. They would all end up in the same pot.
    Of course donors want to make sure their donation is well used but that could include covering running costs to help ensure the future is not in the creditors' hands
     
  11. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    I'd probably suggest that apart from Paignton , most heritage lines are not viable concerns(purely on trading) and need a flow of additional support to help sustain it . The difference is most lines do their best (and do that pretty well) balancing solid trading with a fund raising program that enables projects , overhaul support etc

    The SVR employ a marketing person/team .Having seen both the output plus the engagement along with donations coming in for the bridgnorth shed (£220k) there is a case that they pay for themselves and could be considered an absolutely key role
     
  12. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    Whilst other lines may also rely on donations to remain sustainable, I can’t think of any other line that has appealed for £1M just to keep running for one more year.
     
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  13. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    on the other hand, it's the railway's job not to underinvest in the less glamorous work

    WSR - 'can we have a million pounds please?'
    SVR - 'if we don't sort out Falling Sands, then we're not running to Kidderminster anymore - who wants to donate?'

    (for clarity, the SVR is far from perfect, so not saying they are)
     
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  14. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    I would add the IOWSR to your list in a “normal” operating season it breaks even on ticket sales alone, profits from the shop and catering provide funds for capital projects. It still has fund raising for specific projects to help provide the icing on the cake.
    About a month ago it had its most profitable week ever, which proves that even in these trying times it can still be done.
     
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  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    many thanks Gary , that it useful insight and shows what is possible . fantastic line the IOWSR too
     
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  16. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    But, do you not agree, the WSR appeal doesn’t give any reason to believe the future isn’t in the creditors hands?

    They are asking for a lot of money which is why is is important to get the appeal right and assure us potential donators that there is a way out or at least a viable plan. The problem at the moment is there is no assurance or even a real plan.

    LR is a good example, nobody in their right mind would of donated to LR PLC once the administrators were in. Given developments there it is perhaps not a surprise that people are cautious to donate to something that appears to be going the same way. One thing the appeal so far has shown is the WSR is not a viable business in its current form. There has been nothing to suggest otherwise, a clear 5 year plan of how the railway is going to turn that around is not only important, in my opinion it’s vital.
     
  17. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    I think you’re confusing ‘number of posts’ with ‘number of posters’.

    A small number of individuals making the same repetitive comments day in day out cannot be described as representative.
     
  18. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Regarding the need for fundraising, every heritage railway has have incurred fixed costs during the pandemic, yet their incomes have been much reduced.

    This is not related to their business models, which wouldn't have been designed with COVID in mind.

    Many railways will still be suffering financially, even if they *have* managed to win COVID grants, and had to make tough commercial decisions - many of which may not be obvious from armchairs.
     
  19. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    Mr Lineisclear sir,

    Your report quite rightly pointed out that the current structure was a barrier to funding. The plc then stated that to implement change, it would cost a "6 figure sum". Do you have a view on the accuracy of that claim ? Would you agree that having chosen to do nothing will be a major factor, should the business fail ?
     
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  20. Mike Birch

    Mike Birch New Member

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    What I can't understand is why, if the business is as close to failure as many on here would suggest, have the Great Western Society just moved 1466 to Williton for the completion of its restoration? Presumably they have done the necessary due diligence and don't consider this a possibility?
     

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