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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    You obviously know little about volunteering. There are plenty of people out there on heritage railways who effectively fulfil similar roles as volunteers. I do. It’s not a Mon-Fri 09.00-17.00 job, more like 24/7 as I do it when necessary and when I want to. The NYMR has many people in similar roles as so do the many smaller railways with few or no paid staff. When looking for someone to undertake admin work, the first thing the NYMR does is advertise for volunteers to undertake the role and only if unsuccessful will they look towards paid employment. The WSR is no different.
     
  2. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Where do you live? Most rural areas would consider themselves lucky to get two buses a day rather than one every 1.5 hours. Anyhow that's not the point. If you have an hourly service, you have the luxury of planning your day and then catching the next train/bus. If you have a morning service and an evening service, you plan your travel around the train/bus. You start with the transport and the rest of your plans follow on from there. You don't expect airlines to offer an hourly service.
    1950s? It was like that in the 1990s and, for all I know, is still like that.
    GWR has plenty of NR certified stock and there's very little stopping them from running it to Minehead apart, AFAICS from a lack of paths. For the avoidance of doubt, we are talking about GWR running a public transport service over WSR metals, not the WSR running any sort of public transport service anywhere, least of all to Taunton.
     
  3. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    Right but the difference is you do it when necessary. That isn't really an option for office work though. I can understand totally small railways with few/ no paid staff needing volunteer help for admin. I can understand that but I can't fathom them requiring someone to do it full time. Thats the issue I take umbrage with because its a desired role in the labour market that pays north of the NMW. If it was advertised purely as a part time role then I'd be a lot less Eugene Debs on the matter. I see the compliance officer role being offered on part-time and theres no way the current HR administrator isn't being paid either. And heres this grunt work role (which is still important in case anyone thinks I think differently) being thrown out with a FT option and no reward, that sets off bells for me. Furthermore, the subtext to me is that there is no paid admin either PT or FT which a volunteer assisting for boom and bust would be understandable but the tone suggests they are the admin which for a Not Small Railway doesnt really pass the sniff test I'm afraid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
  4. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    You seem to be arguing from an ideological standpoint. Surely if any organisation can find a volunteer willing to do a full week they would be stupid to employ someone.
    When I retired 10 years ago I would have happily volunteered for a full week doing something different to my work career. However the wife had other ideas, going her route seemed cheaper than the divorce, and I have now got used to doing very little.
     
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  5. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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    To be fair, Taunton's only a short hop away from BL… least of all would probably be, I don't know, Fort William, or Dover, wouldn't it…?

    ;)

    Simon
     
  6. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Get real.
    Companies nowadays are run by accountants and to keep costs down there will be very little spare stock or staff to run additional services.

    That is assuming you mean by GWR one of the current train operators on the Network and not some historic enterprise.
     
  7. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely am arguing from and ideological angle and I'll admit that. I'm involved in union activities and workers right in the hospitality industry. So yeah I find it incredulous to not pay someone when I have to constantly work to pay bills when I'd much rather be volunteering and pottering but thanks to low wages and shifting shift patterns, it isn't possible. I can totally understand doing something different from the job all week but they're hardly going to take on a FT admin volunteer who hasn't the first clue. The barrier to entry means its really trying to appeal to those who have that skillset already. I'm pretty tech savvy and run a small business (see The Tap Room thread) but I'm not sure I'd be suitable for the role either. Other sides of volunteering at least have entry points for those with enthusiasm but not the skills. I've seen busman's holidays in action. When I was volunteering at the Strathspey, Reg used to come up from his time I think at Lincolnshire Wold and do a number of jobs (I really can not remember what his job was or what he came up for) one of which was reputtying windows which he taught me how to do (come to think of it I think he might have been a professional painter). But once again, volunteering some time is very different to asking for all the time.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think you are missing a couple of points.

    One is about volunteer motivation. We might assume that footplate roles are glamorous and admin roles not - but who really knows what personal motivation people get from volunteering? During the early days of the pandemic, my wife (and I think countless other people) spent hundreds of hours sewing face masks - which is work that might otherwise have been done in factories, probably in somewhere like Bangladesh. Was that exploitative? From the outside, it looked like thousands of people volunteered to do work that if you had done it paid, would be considered work in an industry with definite ethical problems. That people were willing to do it for nothing (in fact probably at cost, not least for fabric and cotton) showed that they must have obtained some satisfaction from doing so - coupled no doubt with working condition store enjoyable.

    The other point is that a full time admin role may get someone who is passable at lots of diverse activities; making it a volunteer role may get five people who are all very good at one niche aspect of the role. That isn't making someone volunteer five days per week M-F, 9 - 5; it might be five people doing a day a week at times that suit them. You might not be able to get someone to manage a telephone on that basis, but could easily get someone to manage a website, for example.

    Finally, on the point of someone doing a job for nothing that they could be paid for: that happens at all levels. Our current company chairman is someone who in their working career was a senior railway manager on the mainline railway. Fundamentally the same job; no doubt very onerous, and doing as a volunteer something that previously would have attracted a significant salary. Equally, I know lots of volunteers who do jobs on the railway precisely because they are not what their day job is (I for example steer well clear of any involvement in my railway's IT; it would feel too much like the day job). I suspect both models are common across all heritage railways. It is naive to assume that just because a job exists as a paid role within wider society, it therefore can't be done as a volunteer. (On that point: when the Bluebell Railway had its first volunteer loco crews, nearby Brighton and Three Bridges sheds were still open as steam depots. I'm sure at that time there were individuals cursing their management about depot conditions at Brighton and then turning up on a Saturday to drive trains for free with even worse facilities ...)

    Tom
     
  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's all about expertise in some cases, isn't it?

    For example, for a HR post it is vitally important that the person who does the job (to safeguard the paid employees) has the expertise but also has the up-to-date knowledge. I stopped doing what was previously my day job when I judged that I couldn't guarantee a part time involvement would cover all necessary knowledge any more. That was before anyone thought to question whether my knowledge was recent and relevant.

    The worst thing to happen in any setting is when someone volunteers to do something that is critical when actually they are out-of-date or simply useless.
     
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  10. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    You make some cogent points here, Tom. I'm not saying a role can't be done by a volunteer but my issue was the wider expectation of the role. Like I said, if it was asked as a PT role in support I'd have a lot less issue with it. Motivation is definitely a key part but that should be on the volunteer to commit their time and talent rather than the tone used in the advertising of the role. And doing a job on the railway because it isn't their day job is something I'd expect as well, thats noble because every skill is important. I certainly would struggle to do my day job in a volunteer capacity because like you it would feel too much like work and thus I'd have expectation to be compensated as such (because I'd have to lose a day of work to realistically volunteer in that capacity as well). I take no issue with people taking their skills and sometimes jobs onto railways because they're often required as well and semi retired Big Railway people have useful insight and talent on important matters and the day to day but few are doing it on a full time basis for nothing. I know the Bluebell now has an IT director whos day job is in Amazon but he can delegate work and I assume isn't expected to be available all the time. And on the mask thing, you're right that could have been outsourced to Bangladesh (and probably is in a number of cases) but an unprecedented global pandemic in which a lot of people band together is a pretty unique case.
     
  11. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    Does corporate HR usually have oversight on volunteering positions? Thats usually on the departments themselves or a central volunteer co-ordinator but I could simply have missed other examples. I understand the need for HR in disputes but I've never seen them be where applications for a volunteer position go to.

    Or downright dangerous. Which usually is related to the former. But thats also relevant to paid staff.
     
  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    There are some important differences between volunteering and paid work, and I do a lot of volunteering for my church (sometimes towards a full time level), because it's my commitment to an organisation I support - and where my offer of free labour is of significant value to the organisation because it massively helps with one of the shortest supply commodities - cash. We ran a beer festival last year, as a fundraiser, and the results would not have justified the effort involved had we had to pay for the labour. You may want to rewatch The Titfield Thunderbolt, in particular the enquiry scene where the union official simply can't comprehend the willingness of the volunteers to be exploited. Again, we have had this in the church context - one volunteer was offended to be offered recompense for his work using his professional skills, because he saw the gift of his time and skills as a gift, where payment would fundamentally change the relationship.

    What I do accept is a complication in the specific instance of the WSR is the status of WSR plc as a limited company outwith any charitable structure. At a formal level, that does suggest a difference in the morals of relying on volunteers, but that doesn't stand any serious scrutiny of how the company operates.

    As it happens, and having said all the above, I do have a problem with this being regarded as a volunteer role. That's a purely practical objection - by treating a full time role as voluntary, it masks the real cost of running the railway, and creates an added layer of vulnerability in the long term.
     
  13. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    I must pick your brain sometime about the church beer festival because an idea has been rattling round my head for the last 6 months (for at least a church adjacent charity). I absolutely understand a church being run by volunteers because they're hardly generating a lot of profit. I can think of a number that use otherwise empty space as cafes, meeting rooms, offices as some active and passive income but thats far and away from say Santa Specials. The undertone of the issue for me is the WSR is supposed to be a successful and profit generating company that clearly sees a role as not worth putting out to the public when non-seasonal jobs and stable housing are hard to come by in tourist heavy areas. And like you say, it adds a layer of vulnerability because a volunteer can just stop turning up for any number of reasons whereas a paid role has processes in place.
     
  14. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Have you been reading this thread further back than the mention of this advert? The whole point is that this railway is at the brink of financial deaths door and trying to limit its spending! For once, imho, it seems to be doing the right thing by trying to recruit a willing and able volunteer to perform a function it would otherwise spend cash that could better spent elsewhere on fulfilling its primary reason for being. And that is exactly what volunteers look to do!
     
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  15. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    How real do you want me to get? It's already happened. GWR (the latest incarnation) have previously found the stock, the staff and the justification to run a public transport service to BL and once you have committed the staff and the stock to do that, you can just as well run to Minehead.
    It's got to be the longest short hop in railway preservation history.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
  16. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    Yes I have which is why I know how they made £204k in "clear profit" from the santa specials. I'd be curious to know how much they spent on the SDRT debacle in lawyers fees which was spending it willingly jumped two feet first into.
     
  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    “Clear profit” that was based on direct costs of an event, and not the costs of running the railway as a whole.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    PM me if you want to talk beer festivals… But I think the differences between the two are less than I think you assume.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    Yeah thats a bit of financial illiteracy on my part but I added it in to show I have been paying attention even if the kernels that have come home to roost make my brain hurt trying to read over 2000 pages.
     
  20. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    But why take that 204K figure in isolation? Anyone with anything between their ears realises that that "profit" will be followed by four months with a few months burning cash until the the tourists start to return at Easter. That's how a seasonal business works, periods of boom and idleness, and the management have to make the two balance out. How much they spent on legal fees might affect that balance but presumably they believed the outcome to be worth the expense. I'm not saying I do, though.
     

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