If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I wasn't implying poor management by the NYMR - they have been faced with some hard decisions over the years and have had to redevelop a branchline with no facilities to speak of into a more or less self-sustaining facility. That has required considerable investment and it is not surprising that sometimes money has had to go elsewhere than locomotive overhauls. One thing is sure, though - we are entering a new era where the residual life remaining in ex-BR/Barry locos ad Mk 1 coaches withdrawn before their time is being used up - things will only get more expensive from now on.
     
    Sawdust, jnc, michaelh and 2 others like this.
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Where several examples of locos (or stock) survive, there's already a good degree of cooperation between owners. We have examples of component patterns common to BR standards being used by several groups, a batch build of West Country inner fireboxes, new boilers and cylinders for Terriers. The Swindonian 'Lego Set' approach (history thanks you GJC) almost goes without saying... the list goes on.

    It occurs that if this cooperative effort could be extended into some form of "General Inventory" for shared components, there could be scope for useful cost reductions. The 10 year locomotive overhaul cycle scarcely creeps up unannounced, issues liable to require attention 'next time around' are routinely flagged up. Several lines and trusts have ringfenced funds already. What's to stop those funds being held in the form of hard metal? Commodity prices fluctuate, engineering costs are affected by capacity. These traits could perhaps be played to advantage more so than now.

    For the most part, it's the more modern (and Swindon!) classes which would benefit. Since these form the backbone of many lines, such an approach would ease operational and workshop pressures in enough cases to make a real difference to overhaul costs and turnround times.

    Applied to carriages, it would improve the outlook for many of the MKIs kicking around out of traffic in varying stages of deterioration. If those more delicate wooden bodied vehicles aren't to be worked to death, more needs doing to ensure future capacity requirements can be met.

    One knock-on would be that those utterly non-standard locos and carriages we all cherish could only benefit from any easing of the constant pressure on labour and cash resources.

    It would be downright daft to knock the amazing acheivements of the heritage movement since WWII, but none of us are getting any younger. All I'm arguing for is an extended approach to consolidation to ensure what's been accomplished can be passed, in a more readily sustainable form, to succeeding generations. Existing ad-hoc arrangements have taken things half way already.

    Thoughts, folks?
     
  3. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    I think you are right to think about consolidation, but finding a practical formula to allow the consolidation you suggest between the heritage railways is very challenging. The differences in ownership, management and governance make coordination of efforts difficult other than on a tactical basis (batch builds of steam brakes or bulk ordering of door handles for carriages being two examples I can think of). Bringing together all the major overhauls for Mk1s might make a lot of sense, but where would it be done? How would you ensure the continued volunteer participation (which is for now more valuable I suspect than the cost efficiency of consolidation) if say GWSR carriages were in future overhauled in Williton, or vice versa. Virtual consolidation such as the MHR doing all the boilers for themselves and the Bluebell, and the Bluebell doing all the mechanical overhauls for both at their respective sites also has problems. There is a lot of collaboration already, and it would be good to build on this, but how is the question.
     
    jnc, 30854 and Jamessquared like this.
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think one of the issues is that with very long depreciation times, inflation becomes a major factor.

    For example - suppose a railway laid a mile of new track in the 1980s for, say, £100k. They do normal routine maintenance out of revenue (no problem there) and depreciate the initial capital cost over say 40 years at £2,500 per mile per year. By time you get to the 2020s, the whole lot needs doing from scratch, but will by now probably cost upwards of £500k per mile to replace. Result: an appeal, because no way can it be afforded from revenue.

    Conceivably, you could build up a "war chest" for a loco from steaming fee - indeed that is how many independent loco owning groups work. But you are still likely to be short every time because of inflation. The days of the £500k overhaul are well upon us. You would be going well to get 1000 days in traffic before the next overhaul and you probably have intermediate repairs to do anyway. Even so, at £600 per day you might hope to get £600k back, but the next overhaul may well cost more than that done at the prices that will pertain perhaps 10 or 15 years in the future.

    There is also a question of financial prudence of a railway company in setting money aside that only loses value while in the bank. In theory, you ought to get better value for money spending £50k - providing it is a genuine need, not a WIBN - now rather than in ten years time. But inevitably that means the money being generated by a loco now is paying for what needs doing elsewhere on the railway now, rather than accruing towards a future overhaul.

    (Incidentally, locos are one thing - but what about carriages? If you reckon on a Mark 1 needing maybe a £100k overhaul every 25 years with some intermediate TLC, that's probably £5k per year per carriage. But again, you are likely to spend it when needed rather than build up a fund that sits unused in the bank until you need it. At least with carriages, a reasonable sized railway is likely to need a lot and therefore budgeting is probably a bit more predictable than loco or infrastructure repairs).

    Tom
     
    MellishR, Black Jim and 30854 like this.
  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Short answer to your very pertinent questions.... I don't know! OK... I'm thinking on my feet here, so please don't expect some watertight scheme right here and now!

    In the case of the MKIs, there's already at least one location where the complex restorations have been honed to a fine art. In practical terms, if you break down the restoration into it's principal parts, that's wheelsets, bogie frames, underframes, brake gear, body & end panels, roofs, corridor connections, buffing & coupling, doors, window frames, glazing, interior surfaces & trim, seating. Clearly stripping down, reassembly and painting dictate work being done in one location, but plenty on that list could well be sub'd out to workshops dotted around the heritage movement and elsewhere. Churning out, say, luggage racks or door locks could be done on an 'as and when' bulk batch basis. Ditto tyre turning, brake gear overhauls etc. Restored examples would be replaced by something currently adorning a 'linear scrapyard', so a low loader wouldn't be making too many empty trips. The cost of the restored carriage would then be offset by the cost of the inbound knackered (sorry... unrestored) example. This would keep from needing vast amounts of MKIs kicking around in the same place. You'd be talking about an effective production line, with several vehicles at different stages of restoration.

    In the case of loco parts, surely if, say one 'Black 5' needs some casting or forging, that represents a fair old bit of setting up. Not just in an engineering shop, but design, material and component acceptance. The actual cost of materials is, in reality, one of the least costly factors. It simply has to make more sense to produce batches than one-offs. Storage could be centalised, but that has major cost implications. It's far more likely that stored parts would be kept on-site at one or more participating member line.

    So where would the bodies to do all this come from? Well, in part, one of our biggest bugbears is the skilled labour essential to the heritage sector. Here, there is government support, not least in the form of apprenticeship schemes, counting towards full accreditation, which have been around for years, and show no signs of ending soon. The heritage movement already provides truly useful and relevant experience here, so the confidence that any expansion would continue to do so shouldn't present any major difficulties. ( Maybe even some ongoing training for the folks from member lines would benefit all round.) With government backing, finding suitable premises becomes a hell of a lot easier .... and cheaper.

    With regard to ownership changes, if such a 'General Inventory' proved useful, I suspect the issues would soon find their own answers. Perhaps member lines or individuals, or perhaps the stock items themselves would be registered. Perhaps in the case of MKIs, there's a case for pooling ownership which may appeal to heritage lines. Clearly, for locos, this is infinitely less likely, but the scale of cost reductions and potential to greatly speed up restorations would likely make something along these lines attractive.

    If this train of thought is to continue, we'll need to get off the West Somerset thread, and I'll need a cup of tea.
     
    The Dainton Banker and Black Jim like this.
  6. burmister

    burmister Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    281
    All very valid points but I could not help thinking as I read this that paying todays pensioners ( or past loco runners now needing repairs) from todays earners ( or locos running today) is what Governments do with National Insurance contributions and look at the pension mess todays children will inherit from us.

    Brian
     
    Paul Kibbey likes this.
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Indeed, but I think we are into the "hard choices whichever way you look" sort of territory: I don't think there are any easy answers that some might hope for or imagine.

    Tom
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Don't get me going on that score Tom! :Blackalien:
     
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It certainly seems to me that a central MK1 servicing facility would make a deal of sense
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well, Cranmore will overhaul them for you - at a price.

    However, against centralisation;

    1) Almost inevitably, it means moving from a model that can use significant volunteer labour to an all-paid model, so it will be pricier, albeit maybe giving better certainty in timescales and cost which helps planning.

    2) What does it do for the individual esprit-de-corps for each railway that is an essential part of the value that volunteers feel, and by inference the whole economic model on which preserved railways are based?

    Lots of work is done by one railway on behalf of others where one has particular skills and capacity, and long may it continue. But I am not sure you would want to formalise that into a few centralised businesses doing the majority of such work on behalf of client railways.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
    jnc, 21B and Black Jim like this.
  11. ianh

    ianh Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    179
    Occupation:
    Farmer -
    Location:
    Brecon In Wettest Wales
    It seems that CTMS at Cranmore seem to do quite a good job of other peoples Mk1 and Mk2 coachs.
     
    30854 likes this.
  12. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Locomotives too, from Barry condition and according to agreed dates.

    PH
     
    30854 likes this.
  13. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    2,517
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    A very interesting discussion. I suspect that one of the root causes of the current national shortage of working steam locos is down to these financial issues. Not perhaps that folk have been reckless in not accruing for overhauls in the future but more a case that current spending of real cash on locos will always risk being trumped by infrastructure spending requirements. After all you can run any railway without particular locos or coaches. You cannot run without sufficiently maintained (and in time replaced) bridges and track. This makes one of the benefits of some independent loco ownership by active competent groups charging for locos as they are used pretty clear and is one of the key reasons why some locos are nearly always in service whilst others are stored unserviceable for long periods.
     
    30854 likes this.
  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There's certainly some validity in Tom's points, but I'd counter that in the case of MKIs, there are more out there in need of restoration than will ever be returned to service as things stand. This isn't a battle that can be won whilst there are so many competing restoration demands and it's almost inevitable that most of the currently unserviceable MKIs will be needed somewhere down the line. Much good will it do if they've rotted beyond hope. That would hardly be a legacy our generation could be proud of.

    So far as espirit-de-corps goes, I agree with Tom that it is a vital part of what makes our heritage lines something special, though again, I'd argue that by removing the most common carriers from the workloads of individial workshops would, in practice, add to this. Those vehicles which have lain around in 'chicken coop' condition for decades, in many cases, will suddenly leap up the restoration queue. For 'yer actual' hands on restorers, what's going to prove more interesting? 'Yet another MKI' or that Kirtley or Beattie (either one) era compo body that's sat under a tarp round the back of the sheds "since my grandad first brought me here as a five year old"? (In my case, that's a very long time ago!)

    Please don't jump to the conclusion that I'm suggesting some Stalinist diktat from on high. A cooperative effort, certainly in the case of the MKI fleet, would unlock manpower, in the form of apprenticeships, that most lines can only dream of.

    The point about cost I take issue with. Simply ignoring costs inherent in the present heritage model, or kicking the can down the road, doesn't remove these, it merely allows them to be ignored.... though not, be it noted, by the ravages of time.

    While production line restoration would take the best points of "economy of scale", it doesn't follow that profit is the driving motive. Any scheme needs to be produced by the heritage market, for the heritage market. This emphatically isn't intended as some nefarious means of making a quick buck!
     
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Completely converse conclusions can be reached on this very point I am afraid. I favour the holistic approach to all aspects of ownership and operation of tourist railways. Others will disagree.

    PH
     
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    ..... and no doubt will! I guess it all comes down to where that holistic borderline falls. No man is an island!

    Some volunteers do it to get dirty on a footplate, some to inform the public and keep our lines safe for the enjoyment of all. Some to bake and roast to provide that wonderful homely feeling to a well run station eaterie (or eatery- before Martin sticks his oar in!;)). There are as many motives as locomotives. (that was a pretty good one!). A successful railway is always more than the sum of it's parts.
     
  17. Black Jim

    Black Jim Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    166
    Sorry to go off the current thread of this discussion, but a lot do it for purely nostalgic reasons. I know i did , i'm old enough to remember ,just, working steam & the railway that was. But ive noticed that a lot of youngsters volunteer for this reason , some being in thier teens now so born 40 years or so after the end of steam. Presumably they are looking to a simpler era as a antidote to the modern way of life we live in now.
     
  18. Maverick

    Maverick New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    468
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    And i'm pleased to report that the WSR for one has a very healthy group of locomotive personnel sub 35 year olds who are helping establish a future for the WSR as a professional tourist/heritage attraction. The department has a large number from passed cleaner up to passed fireman and there are many in the cleaning gang working their way through the training process. Part of the recent success is the slow rekindling the social factor of volunteering, getting back to what it was like in the 1970's (the simpler era), none of this do your turn and head home, volunteering on the WSR is once again becoming a place to meet new lifelong friends, enjoy the days work and then follow it with a social drink in a local hostelry. Over the past three years there has even been several large group trips away from the WSR and indeed theres a large contingent of to the wonderful Great Dorset Steam Fair next week.
     
  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Whats the roster for Saturday?

    WSR.org shows

    Sat 19 Aug 2017
    GWR 4-6-0 no 6960 Raveningham Hall
    Diagram starts at Minehead
    LMS 0-6-0 no 44422
    Diagram starts at Bishops Lydeard
    SDJR 2-8-0 no 53809
    Charter

    Many thanks
     
    Paul Kibbey likes this.
  20. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    I think you make some interesting points, and ask a question that does need more debate. I wasnt expecting you would have a solution, if there is one out there it will likely evolve from a mixture of need and vision over a period of time.

    I am not sure that there are more Mk1s in need of restoration than will turn a wheel in service. Indeed one of the challenges of recent years has been locating any at all for sale, but especially the TSO variant which with the higher density of seating is probably the most useful even if the passenger generally prefers one of the "K" variants. I still think that for the most part the contribution of volunteer labour outstrips the efficiency that centralisation would bring, and unless the organisation delivering the Mk1 overhauls were a co-op there would be the issue of client railways having to fund a "margin" for the business even if that business were non-profit.
     

Share This Page