West Somerset Railway General Discussion

The other week the only people who got a seat for a cooked breakfast on the QB had to turn up 2 hours before the train departed. Many passengers arriving later expecting to get a seat on the QB and a cooked breakfast were sadly disappointed and unable to pay for such service for lack of seats. Lost revenue and unhappy punters. There is a suggestion from Barrie that this was partly due to poor planning on the part of the WSR in formulating the carriage stock for the service.

This is surely quite basic. Barrie anticipated the demand and requested the carriages accordingly. The WSR failed to provide.

Frank C commented last week that there were questions over whether the QB dining operation would cover the costs of overhauling the vehicles, implying in the long run the QB may not cover it's costs.

This is all covered in the Coombes Report that everyone seems to have forgotten about.

Maximising table places/seatings is a fundamental element of any dining operation whether it be a restaurant, pub, or the QB. The demand was there last week, but not the supply. Notwithstanding Frank C's concerns, this is very poor, whatever way you look at it.

In order to allay Frank C's concerns, the QB must be properly integrated and supported by the railway as a whole and by the WSR Board to make it a success and the mistakes of last week avoided.

It is pointless forum members commenting that there is no such demand when last week's posts show very unhappy punters without the meal they were prepared to pay for.

Cheers,

Julian

 

I believe that there is - the Swanage gradually built passenger numbers to become the 2nd or 3rd busiest in the UK, much of the growth on the NYMR over the years was without an extension until the Whitby operation saw numbers boosted by 1/6 or more. The West Somerset has actually dropped back (which can happen) but I believe that any business must seek to expand, because if it doesn't at least aim to expand, it will in fact stagnate and contract.

But then again, I am a 'rampant expansionist', as I was once told - something which I think our Vicar is now relying on me continuing to be in a new role at Church!

Steven

 

I agree that Watchet is an ideal destination, whether for families or individuals, enthusiasts, tourists, or day trippers where a "half line return" is needed. A "Watchet day trip return" could be offered from each end of the line at a price which would attract custom. I've heard families at both ends of the line say they would like to travel on a train, but the cost is too much. Perhaps they look at the whole line price.
Williton would also be a reasonable choice of destination for a "there and back" from either end of the line, especially if there was something there such as the SVR have at Highley "The Engine House". Passengers arriving at Williton usually have a wait in the loop anyway, and would probably not be looking to walk into Williton (I know, I did the walk!) .
At Highley, there is a gift shop, museum with locos, and a cafe/restaurant (cafeteria hot meals). Of course the current facilities at Williton would need to be elsewhere....but before anyone starts bleating.. "there is no demand", "prove it", "no money". "can't be done" etc. etc... just wonder how other railways got there.
Robin L.

 

I was strictly a customer at the WSF, boarding the dining set at Stogumber (obviously!) and waiting until Blue Anchor for a table to come Free.

But there were some curious aspects of the operation in respect of the QB.

(1) by the plan, the set should have had a TSO next to the RU so more tables could have been laid up to meet demand, but in fact an SK was there. Why could the set have not been shunted, even at the last moment? And,

(2) in any event, the dining set was 7F-hauled, so why could it not have run 7 cars and included the FO, giving an extra 42 seats and a first class option.

Curious, no?

To pay their way, the dining cars do need to be ‘sweated’.

A nutty aspect of the present dining set (hello X6) is that the big old-fashioned lumpy diesel in the brakevan blocks access, so nothing can be coupled behind. Chucking away the old diesel generator and replacing it with a modern lorry generator, or a gel-pack-battery-and-inverter arrangement, potentially underframe-mounted would make much more sense. But more investment required.

Robin

 

I too have made this suggestion only to be told it was too difficult. I have repeated the suggestion again to PC.

 

There are I believe good reasons to base a WSR business plan on inter alia passenger growth.

Yes there has been growth on other Heritage Railways without line extensions, including amongst the lines in the South West.

On the West Somerset numbers grew from c. 150,000 to 207,000 in a decade peaking at the 2007 'financial crash'. There was then a fall of >10% which has still not been fully recovered. It is true that fares have increased since then and without checking (ie fare revenue divided by pax numbers) I think the 'take' per passenger has in real terms (ie taking account of inflation) increased. There is always a point at which increased charges will lead to a lower uptake but based on personal observation (as a TTI) I think we have not reached that position but are fast approaching.

Somerset annual population increase is currently c.4000 pa, (with Taunton Deane above the county average). More relevant I think is the age profile ie growth in over 65s is at 3.5% pa. (ie c19,000 pa) They are the age group that fills our Spring and Autumn trains.

The Flying Scotsman visit, whilst requiring a major organisation (from which we have learnt much for the future) saw >10,000 travel of whom the majority had never travelled on the WSR before. Some of them took up the offer of reduced tickets to travel later in Autumn. The FS visit was also a financial success ie using the maxim "cash in" vs "cash out" the ratio was significantly better than our normal operations and even other special events.

In short, yes Railways grow pax without line extensions, yes I believe the WSR is no where near market saturation but we will have to work for growth ie appeal to the potential passengers. (Which may involve breakfasts .

The big challenge I think in terms of market penetration must be a burgeoning Bristol ?

Michael Rowe

ps these are very much personal views

 

A cheaper ticket to Watchet already exists:

http://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/events/detail/the-watchet-afternoon-explorer

From the MD end, Butlins customers can get a cheap ticket to WT, travelling out on the 1015 and returning on any train.

 

Mike

I’m pleased that we have found some things to agree on.

A serious question. Given that the WSR has not achieved any passenger growth for a significant period (including a year including Scotsman), would you agree that a business plan based on passenger growth would have to be treated with a high degree of caution as to outcome?

So, for example, spending would have to planned very cautiously until the results of initiatives designed to increase passenger income were known.

As a scientist long ago, the equivalent principle is that interpolation is much easier and more reliable that extrapolation.

Robin

 

The WSR must continue to strongly market those journeys known to be popular. There is already much work done to promote journeys to intermediate stations. These stations already have notable attractions esp Watchet and Dunster, and promotional efforts (and money) are rightly prioritised on those places. The Commercial Team do a fab job with limited resources. BTW I'm not at all convinced Williton is a favourite destination; perhaps when time and money permit, something may have to be created there to encourage visitors but my hunch is that other stations already offer much much more, so best to work on those. The Railway offers a full range of return and single fares for journeys between each of its stations so there truly is a journey for all pockets. I don't blame the Plc for encouraging day rover tickets and the full line return fare (same as the day rover) is very good value compared with some other railways but the competition in the main is not so much with those places but more so with other local tourist attractions.

Steve

 

Thanks Steven. It would be interesting to know if the factors behind such increases could be isolated to establish what worked in terms of boosting pax number. A random check of annual reports at Companies House shows that in 2004 pax number at the WSR were basically the same as they are now, which suggests either that the management is not very good or that it ain't that easy. I was hoping to avoid comparisons with the religion. The CoE, who perhaps have even more intractable problems e.g. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/12/mission-impossible-the-c-of-es-attempt-to-woo-new-members/ cannot even agree on whether bums on seats is a target at all (as an aside, as usual Martyn Percy loses no opportunity to launch a broadside at Lambeth Palace).

Thanks Michael. The period prior to 2007 is a bit historic but if the fall in numbers was due to the financial crisis, there is not much the WSR can do about that. The Talyllyn grew from 5000 in 1951 to ~200,000 but peaked in 1971(?) and has been on a downward trend ever since, but I think it is generally considered that this is a reflection of changing tastes in the British holiday market which no amount of WCs, children's play areas and "full Welsh" breakfasts can tackle. The Scotsman visit sounds more to be a one off boost to revenue rather than a sustainable increase in pax on "normal" trains. I don't know the answers but my sense is that it will be difficult for a railway on its own initiative to grow the market for a simple train ride.

There has always been a reluctance among railways to promote less than full fare journeys on the basis that this may cannibalise revenue, and it will be interesting to see what impact an emphasis on alternative shorter cheaper journeys would have on revenue.

 

There is a danger of promoting shorter journeys - I have had it put to me that, as these tend to be at a higher £/mile fare, they are better then full line journeys, but this only works if the seats are then reoccupied by new passengers also paying a part line journey! I believe the SVR saw passenger receipts dip when The Engine House opened because people weren't buying a full line ticket. I think they Budget on passenger numbers rather than £, so the result was that budgeted numbers were being met (or probably exceeded) but cash through the farebox wasn't.

What I believe the longer lines needs to do is promote themselves as a 'complete day out' - encouraging passengers to use the train to stop off at both intermediate and destination stations and get 'value' from the train journey being central to a complete day, as opposed to the couple of hours maximum that might be spent on a shorter line. I have seen this work very well and in fact was the 'pattern' many passengers worked out for themselves - spend time at the destination and break the journey there or back (or even both) for an hour. There are complaints that this is encouraging secondary spend to be made away from the line, but the longer journey gives far more time for on-board Sales, and the marginal surplus from 10 extra passenger tickets on an existing service is all but 100% of the fares, whereas expecting more from retail and catering facilities that are probably already at or over capacity would, even if physically possible, incur additional costs of goods sold (and possibly a need for more labour).

The line can promote full day itineraries', link with other local attractions (improving relations with neighbours) and thereby also less directly show shorter journeys are possible. A crucial point of promoting 'full days out' is that it demonstrates the value of the fare, thus enabling a slightly more aggressive increase policy (but see below!)

Michael is very right to be cautious about Fares increases - like him, I am an ex-TTI and was also a Booking Clerk when a 20% Fares increase was introduced some years back - guess what - numbers fell by 20%! As Robin says, caution is always needed (and all too easily tempted not to be exercised) in taking the yield of a fare increase into Budgeted Income in the year of increase, and 'reasonable and every year' is a better increase policy than 'shock and awe' followed by a drop in passenger numbers and 'oh, we can't raise fares next year'. Of course, I have heard a large fares increase proposed specifically to try and reduce passengers numbers to make operating easier, but, as a 'rampant expansionist', I have never like this 'contracting' argument, do not consider preserved railways to have anything like the sophistication of data on elasticity of demand to be able to use such a policy effectively and without huge potential risk - and consider that a reduced number of passengers who have been heavily 'fleeced' for the fare are less likely to generate goodwill and resultant positive word of mouth and, crucially, donations and membership income, which are just as vital a source of funding as farebox for the business structure of most preserved railways.

Steven

 

The Church analogy is, of course, a separate and perhaps 'banned' subject - but I do see real parallels' of the 'it will see me out' attitude on preserved railways - 'I don't come here to do a proper days work, and as long as I the place is still here until I don't want to come anymore, why should I care about after that?' could described either some Churches or some preserved railways (or indeed any 'club' type organisation). Arguably, not a problem as long as those with such an attitude don't block others from taking the necessary, longer term view.

The other point arising from looking at Churches is that what may seem like quite small increases in individual Churches build to first arrest and then reverse an overall decline. A business can be the same and no extra business should be deemed 'not worth pursuing' if it is profitable.

As a final couple of comments on a quite scan of the linked Spectator article; our parish has a 'Let's Grow' initiative in place, which combines all of what the writer sees as 'alternative' approaches of growing numbers, outreach and community works and spiritual growth and from personal experience, I can tell you the different elements support each other and are indeed essential parts of the whole. Let's Grow is our reaction to a wider (Diocesan I think) initiative with an longer acronym (more than a TLA!) as its name, which can appear at times to have 'a bigger congregation = a bigger collection' as a key aim but I sure that is accidental! Churches throughout the Diocese have or are preparing their own plans for growth. Perhaps the key point here is that the Church of England is thinking about growing, and that in itself is a bold and welcome development (even though it was also 'the Boss's' last earthly command to always aim to grow, so shouldn't be a 'new development').

That is also perhaps a key point for preserved railways - is there a will to grow, or a desire to stagnate? The latter is very dangerous....

Steven

 

True. I'm sure the WSR, with 40 years experience of marketing full and shorter trips, have a handle on any impact. Some folks cannot do the full trip due to lack of time and/or lack of money. I'm sure we all believe it is better that folks buy a ticket than not. Even if it is a trip to the next station and back.

Steve

 

Dealing with your last point first, merely to grow in the sense of extending the line is equally dangerous as stagnation. We have to beware of the inner gricer and realise that with a full adult return fare of £31 as in one place we know of there is likely to be significant sales resistance. There is no question of profiteering as this probably represents what it costs to do the job. Arguably the WSR needs to charge fares of this order to meet the costs of running the place.

Oddly enough there is the germ of a possible alternative, hard by Minehead station in the form of Butlins. In their heyday the latter were brilliantly successful at providing just enough entertainment within the site as to render their visitors less likely to take themselves and their spend, elsewhere. Before the yelling and screaming starts I am not suggesting changing the WSR into a form of "Butlitz"but there are examples, such as the SVR's Engine House, or the development of Havenstreet as a visitor centre which suggest there are means of broadening the appeal beyond merely that of riding up and down in trains.

Paul H

 

No-one wishes to stagnate, but at some point we must be prepared for visitor numbers to plateau - and there is a real difference. That is why we need to be collecting and storing future projects and thinking about new builds, and why it is also not wrong to have locos out of traffic for long periods, because they will provide fresh attractions on their return. Anyone who thinks that the expectations of our passengers will not change to become ever more sophisticated as time goes by has their head buried in the sand. A good example of this lies in dining trains. As far as I can see most offer variations on the traditional Sunday roast dinner, but with ever more cookery programmes on TV people are looking to see more sophisticated cuisines and pubs and the like are responding. Less so railways, I think, yet it should be borne in mind that this is a competitive world and in this particular field pubs are an important competitor.

 

The problem with Williton Station, as has been pointed out, is its distance from the centre of Williton, where the only real attraction anyway is the Bakelite Museum. The second problem is that for much of the season, once you have disembarked, your only two options are to get over the the other platform and go back, or have two hours to 'kill' and while your enthusiasts, [who are not our core clientelle] might like to look round the sheds, Mr.& Mrs. Average Traveller will not relish this prospect. My advice to travellers is always to go to Watchet, so much more on offer.

 

Apart from caution that most visitors will not be unduly fussed about "new builds" and so on, I would agree.

PH

 

Okay, but as I said above, there is a need to provide ancillary attractions to encourage visitors to remain, with their spend, on site,

PH

 

How is the Bakelite Museum doing these days? I did hear it was at risk of closure.

It is of course a similar distance outside the village, in the opposite direction, so not straightforward to combine as a day out.

 

A rank of say 7/8 new build Dean clerestory corridor coaches painted with full lining out, is more more likely to attract Jo Public just than a new build engine.