What is the long term future for the unrestored Barry engine

The 34073 saga may only be the start of many similar stories. It begs the question of just what the prospects are for the ex Barry engines that remain untouched.

The price of a restoration is now well beyond the vast majority of people and most groups. In addition, most of the early preservationists are now in 50/60+ and probably won't have the will to start again so the expertise is lost.

It may also be true that there are too many preserved engines on heritage railways and that those railways are already struggling to maintain & overhaul the engines that they have.

It will be a very sad day, but it is probably inevitable that some of them will end up being broken up for spares

 

Bradley Manor, Edgecumbe, Galatea, all originally bought for spares, with 2 now running and one that should do so next year...

I can't see engines being broken up for spares, but I can see them being left to rot on sidings until a Hoskingesque benefactor appears, which is why a key thing now is for more railway centres to invest in covered accommodation. SVR will shortly have all non-runners under cover, and if long term projects could be kept out of the elements then at least they wouldn't get any worse (Barry 7 also under cover, and they must be in relatively poor condition in comparison to others).

You do raise an important point though, in that some groups have been raising funds for a long time and have yet to fully restore their loco while some engines in worse condition have been fast tracked as they've been fortunate enough to have been financed by someone with deeper pockets (Braunton, for example).

Maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread of ongoing restoration projects where groups can give the current state of play of their engine as well as advising what they're currently raising money for as well as how much is required (I think the group working on Blue Star need £10, 000 for a cylinder, the group working on Wightwick Hall seem to be getting closer to the finish line but I'm not sure how close, I saw 92134 at LNWR Crewe but, again, I don't know how far along she is).

I'm sure they all have individual websites, but a single thread would allow casual browsers to find out more and potentially contribute - you don't have to raise the final total all in one go, but financing the Blue Star cylinder work would allow them to take another step along the road.

 

Sorry to drift OT; I'm unsure where that figure came from however, unless they are planning on using a second user one, it seems exceedingly low compared with other locomotives that have needed similar therapy.

 

"Bradley Manor, Edgecumbe, Galatea"..
i think they are in different class to 2-8-0 tank and tender engines and 2-10-0's and SR pacifics..all of which are too big and/or there are (currently) too many of to be of use to a railway or for main line use. however, so long as they exist they will ONE DAY get restored Im sure,

 

:-k An interesting question. The long term future for all of us is death of course but leaving aside such serious thoughts to focus on the future of locomotives I would hope that the long term future for most ex-Barry Scrapyard locomotives is security even when they cannot be operated for whatever reason. This will depend on many things but I agree absolutely that secure covered accommodation is vital (as it is for all rolling stock). Some ex-Barry locomotives do appear to benefit from individuals, mainly very wealthy benefactors whilst others rely on a steady, if smaller, income and dedicated volunteers. An example of the latter is 28xx 2807, which has considerable interest as being the oldest locomotive ever to grace "that Yard" in South Wales. Moved to the Glos Warks Rly in 1981 it should be in steam sometime in 2009 as work to complete it moves steadily ahead although naturally not as fast as its supporters would wish. To be realistic, without a huge sum of money you cannot buy a speedy restoration. Younger people will continue to be required to assist in the running of these locos and there are I'm sure, some young people who would like to own one outright. I think the long term future depends very much on whether the ex-Barry locomotives benefit from a large supporting group. 2807's owners are many and are very supportive. (As one of them I can vouch for also having to be very patient too, having waited for 2807 to steam since 1981!) I think the key is long-term support with possibly a charitable status support group to assist. The majority of ex-Barry locos are of GWR origin which tends to skew the interest a little but I believe that all of them do have a long term future if they aren't allowed to rot on sidings. Currently there are several ex-Barry locomotives on the Glos Warks Railway which are in working order or are close to being so, including 7903 and 5619 whilst 2807 and 35006 stand a very good chance of steaming in 2009 whilst 6984 Owsden Hall isn't too far behind. 76077 is still a kit of parts but I believe there are plans to restore it when time allows whilst 4270 is being restored off site. 6960 Raveningham Hall comes back to Toddington from its overhaul very soon (its tender has already arrived). I also believe that the survival of all the ex-Barry locomotives will not stop the "new build" industry as there is room for them (indeed a necessity when some ex-Barry locomotives may need to stop steaming and be put on static indoor display) and my positive thoughts on 82045 are already well known of course!

 

Boldford - you're probably right in that I've underestimated the amount , but the point I'm making is that if a group says 'we need £300,000 to completely restore this engine', the normal reaction is to see it as a mammoth and overwhelming obstacle, whereas breaking it down into smaller amounts for precise jobs makes it seem more manageable.
A lot of the new build groups have been doing something like this (the Patriot group just focused on raising the money for the frames initially) and they seem to be having some joy with it.

Owsden Hall potentially on the horizon? News to me, and good news too!

 

Whatever happens to the unrestored wrecks, I think its optimistic to think that all of the restored locos have a secure future. If (or probably when) it becomes impossible to run steam locos on heritage lines (that would probably be down to operating restrictions for high pressure steam plant or emission issues) I can't imagine that comfy homes will be found for upwards of 20 Bulleid pacifics for example. Realistically one MN and an unrebuilt and a rebuilt light pacific would cover the "museum" needs. The same for Manors,Castles, A4s etc. One hopes that this doesn't happen soon, but given the way regulations grow, I think its inevitable. If I'm honest I think at least some (or some of the parts) of the unrestored locos will be scrapped before restoration.

Rob

 

Breaking Barry Wrecks for spares has already taken place. The Essex Loco Group, based on the NYMR own three S15's - 30825, 830, 841. That running as 825 currently is a composite of 841 & 825. 830's boiler has been removed from its frames, and is being overhauled, to allow for a rapid return to traffic when the ticket expires on that currently fitted to 825 (ex 841).

From memory, 841 was suffering from cracked frames when withdrawn, so I expect we've seen the last of her, as it is of course the frames that give the identity to the loco. I don't think that there are any plans to ever have more than one S15 restored, of the three.

I'm sure the SVR broke a 57xx many moons ago too?

I think that further canibalisation is inevitable in the face of ever escallating overhaul costs, especially of boilers.

 

They did indeed. 3612 if memory serves me correctly. However, before anyone starts screaming about heresy, they did that in the late seventies, I believe. The engines that received the salvaged parts have all run in preservation. There were still numerous unpurchased engines at Barry when she was broken, so there were other opportunities for engines to be preserved. The debate over 34073 now raises an interesting question. Is it really that much worse for an engine to be broken now that there are none unclaimed?

Oh, and if you really want something to get your teeth into, never mind the S15's. What about a certain line that is keeping what remains of two Jintys "just in case"? There are very few lines that couldn't use one of those.....

 

What happened to the sale agreement for 830, that said she was to be restored as herself? Pity if the Essex Loco Group are going to butcher all their S15s, lovely locomotives that deserve to be restored using their component parts.
In the classic car world, people are busy trying to undo the butchery of pulling cars apart and putting them back together as different ones, I hope the same will happen with railway preservation.
If they want to do 825 and 830 properly, the Urie Society have the proper boiler and tender frame of 825, which means 830 could have 841s tender (rebuilt properly, unlike the one currently behind so called 825.
Daniel

 

I think that the ultimate intention of the Essex Loco Soc is to restore 830 but that needs money and the ELS's prime source of income is from hire fees from 825. They aren't a large group with lots of volunteers and fundraisers but they have a long and successful track record. It makes sense to have an overhauled boiler ready to drop onto 825's frames once the existing boiler is due for overhaul so that 825 can carry on and earn more money for the group. That is no different from that which BR did.

 

Some groups may continue to occasionally raise funds and drift along with the hope of restoring their particular loco over the next 20 years. For sites that have several locos that are more wrecks than locos a decision may be made to
1. canibalise each loco where poss and sell the remainder for it's scrap value or
2. admit there is no chance of restoration to working status and therefore restore the loco cosmetically only. If needs be that gaping hole in the smoke box can be covered with (say) a fibre glass panel and just painted.

 

Ed, We've been here before. The identity of a loco is that which the owners wish to give it, nothing more. If it was simply down to the frames being the identifier, the NYMR would be overhauling 45203 as the frames of 5203 went to 5063 in 1944 and these frames went to 45428 in 1950. Similarly, the frames that started life with 5027 before becoming 5017 ultimately ended up on 45212 in 1954. The early Black 5's were quite incestuous! Black 5's aren't the only locos to have had frame swaps and there are other locos in preservation that carry a different identity to that which the frames first started out with. As an aside on the Black 5's, the works plates stayed with the specific item of the loco they were attached to. Some builders of these locos fitted worksplates to the smokebox and others to the frames and as these parts were swapped around, so it was possible to see locos with two different builders plates!

 

I often thought that the NRM should preserve a Barry wreck in Barry condition, afterall the locos that Barry gave us are a very large part of the preserved railways we have today, without Barry most of our railways just couldn't exist. I know the NRM dont tell the story of preserved railways they only tell the story of big railways, but this a part of our railway history that shouldn't go untold. When the last one has been restored they'll all be gone and the opertunity lost to have a piece of history as it was!

Im I right in thinking that the NRM has nothing on display that mentions or tells the story of Barry scrap yard.

 

The NRM have a very active ex-Barry loco on display at York. It is, of course, 35029 Ellerman Lines. Isn't the loco's history mentioned on the descriptive plaque?

 

What an incredibly ageist statement. I can only assume you are well below that age group.

 

whats ageist about that? loads of people retire in their 50's and 60's....or are not in good enough health to roll around the floor of a cold engine shed scraping rust etc PS im 53

 

whats ageist about that? loads of people retire in their 50's and 60's....or are not in good enough health to roll around the floor of a cold engine shed scraping rust etc PS im 53[/quote:2p45clvy]


what's ageist about it is to assume that because someone is in their 50s they are past it. You can not be up to "rolling around on the floor" at any age. But being 50 plus doesn't mean you don't have the will to get something done - no more than being 20 something does.

 

Totally agree the NRM should have a Barry loco on display. It would show the public just what a lot of groups had to start with and how far they have come to get locos into fully restored condition. A few months ago when we had 5967 in the bay platform at Northampton I was suprised by the number of people who didn't realise just how much work was involved. Rather than let these engines sit at the back of a siding give them some publicity. If people turn up to a railway and one of these engines catches there interest they may come back for a second visit. Surely thats got to be good for business.

 

And, at the same time, cover it if at all possible - not everywhere has the luxury of covered accommodation, but shouldn't be too hard to rig up a polythene sheet (did it in scouts as a fire shelter. Ah, those were the days...). I've seen what I took to be Thornbury Castle covered with a quite natty bespoke tarpaulin, but the only drawback was you couldn#t then see the engine.

Point being if it's outside, it'll deteriorate, as the SVR have found out when restoring the 'Flying Pig', significantly adding to both the cost and duration of the restoration.

Though I do think it's good that the general visitor gets more of an idea of just how much hard work you chaps put in!