What would you do?

NOTFORME_99 · Nov 3, 2016

If you can find an another Barclay with a good boiler you might be able to swap them ?

Steve · Nov 3, 2016

NOTFORME_99 said: ↑

If you can find an another Barclay with a good boiler you might be able to swap them ?
Click to expand...

If you can find another Barclay with a good boiler you would be restoring that one.

Steve · Nov 3, 2016

estwdjhn said: ↑

For my sins, I've done a certain amount of boiler work... these days, I mainly sit in an ivory tower drawing pictures (with the odd dimension) of bits of boilers and adding extra zeros to the numbers on quotes.

It's impossible to tell from a few grainy pictures of the outside of a boiler what state it's in, and even stood next to it one can only see so much with all the tubes still in.

Best case is that the firebox is good, stays and crownstays are good, front tubeplate/barrel is good, and you get away with welding a D patch in the bottom of the smokebox, and putting a set of tubes in it. A set of tubes will probably be £2K, plus labour to remove the old set and fit new etc. A non-pressure side smokebox patch won't be a lot of money. If you've got to get contractors to tube it, flat off mating faces and pads, fit new studs, hydraulic and steam test it for you, you'd probably be looking at £5-8k all up. If you can do a lot of the time consuming but not very technical stuff yourselves, it could well cost you less.

At the opposite extreme, if the firebox is thin to the point of scrapping, it's got cracks in the backhead, and throatplate, needs a front barrel ring and front tube-plate etc, you could easily spend the wrong side of £50k with contractors fixing it (Although you would then probably get 30 years out of the boiler with little more then sets of tubes every ten years).

A probable mid-range would be it wanting a barrel ring, front tube-plate, set of crown stays, and some odd bits of building up on the box. You'd probably be looking at £20-25k with contractors all up in that case.

If it's not likely to get worked on any time soon, I would strongly suggest storing it the right way up off the ground to try and minimize deterioration (I've seen some strange and nasty sights where boilers have been left in bad places for long periods).

I wouldn't needle gun it (it will take forever to do well, and give you white finger as a bonus), get it shot blasted and sprayed (my local firm for mobile shot blasting this sort of things would probably want about £400 for the whole operation, which IMHO is money well spent, unless you really don't value your time or sanity).

You really need either a boiler inspector or a competent boiler-maker armed with a thickness meter to give it the once over, then you can start asking round for budget quotes based on what that throws up, and see how frightened you feel.

All this ignores the rest of the loco of course, when this should actually be a major consideration. It's no good just budgeting for doing the boiler if the bottom end is falling to bits and the cylinders are cracked.

Key questions are probably going to include:

1) General state of the bottom end. Is it all sloppy and horrible, or will most of it go again with minimal work

2) Cylinders - are the bores/valve faces good. Do they have wear or scores that will need machining out. Are the castings cracked?

3) Tyres - how much is left of them, and do they need (and will they stand) turning?

4) Are the frames true and square? It's not uncommon to find industrial locos where nasty things have happened to the frames, which has then had considerable and unfortunate knock-on effect on the running gear and motion (and round all which you will have to work if you want it to run well when it goes back together).

5) How complete is this engine. One with no backhead fittings, injectors, safety valves, bearing basses etc will cost considerably more to fix than one that is totally complete.

Some of this is somewhat subjective, depending on what you need the engine to do when it's done - an engine running over a couple of hundred yards on the flat can afford to clank more from the motion than one doing 10 mile round trips with a 1 in 40 bank in the middle.

Related to 5) above - if you decide at least for now, it's a bridge too far to return it to steam, I would suggest loosely reassembling all the big bits, and storing all the little bits in one section of a locked container should be a priority. Someone will thank you for it one day. The world of preservation is littered with examples of engines taken to bits by people with the best of intentions, where expensive and critical bits have subsequently gone missing (not least as over time the people involved move on), and the subsequent return to traffic 20 years later ends up costing half as much again because of all the extra things that have to be made or bought!
Click to expand...

Can't fault you on the above, John, but I've made a note of your budget prices for the next time I invite you to tender.

69621 · Nov 3, 2016

Easy answer-give it to me!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anthony Wiaczek · Nov 4, 2016

estwdjhn said: ↑

For my sins, I've done a certain amount of boiler work... these days, I mainly sit in an ivory tower drawing pictures (with the odd dimension) of bits of boilers and adding extra zeros to the numbers on quotes.

It's impossible to tell from a few grainy pictures of the outside of a boiler what state it's in, and even stood next to it one can only see so much with all the tubes still in.

Best case is that the firebox is good, stays and crownstays are good, front tubeplate/barrel is good, and you get away with welding a D patch in the bottom of the smokebox, and putting a set of tubes in it. A set of tubes will probably be £2K, plus labour to remove the old set and fit new etc. A non-pressure side smokebox patch won't be a lot of money. If you've got to get contractors to tube it, flat off mating faces and pads, fit new studs, hydraulic and steam test it for you, you'd probably be looking at £5-8k all up. If you can do a lot of the time consuming but not very technical stuff yourselves, it could well cost you less.

At the opposite extreme, if the firebox is thin to the point of scrapping, it's got cracks in the backhead, and throatplate, needs a front barrel ring and front tube-plate etc, you could easily spend the wrong side of £50k with contractors fixing it (Although you would then probably get 30 years out of the boiler with little more then sets of tubes every ten years).

A probable mid-range would be it wanting a barrel ring, front tube-plate, set of crown stays, and some odd bits of building up on the box. You'd probably be looking at £20-25k with contractors all up in that case.

If it's not likely to get worked on any time soon, I would strongly suggest storing it the right way up off the ground to try and minimize deterioration (I've seen some strange and nasty sights where boilers have been left in bad places for long periods).

I wouldn't needle gun it (it will take forever to do well, and give you white finger as a bonus), get it shot blasted and sprayed (my local firm for mobile shot blasting this sort of things would probably want about £400 for the whole operation, which IMHO is money well spent, unless you really don't value your time or sanity).

You really need either a boiler inspector or a competent boiler-maker armed with a thickness meter to give it the once over, then you can start asking round for budget quotes based on what that throws up, and see how frightened you feel.

All this ignores the rest of the loco of course, when this should actually be a major consideration. It's no good just budgeting for doing the boiler if the bottom end is falling to bits and the cylinders are cracked.

Key questions are probably going to include:

1) General state of the bottom end. Is it all sloppy and horrible, or will most of it go again with minimal work

2) Cylinders - are the bores/valve faces good. Do they have wear or scores that will need machining out. Are the castings cracked?

3) Tyres - how much is left of them, and do they need (and will they stand) turning?

4) Are the frames true and square? It's not uncommon to find industrial locos where nasty things have happened to the frames, which has then had considerable and unfortunate knock-on effect on the running gear and motion (and round all which you will have to work if you want it to run well when it goes back together).

5) How complete is this engine. One with no backhead fittings, injectors, safety valves, bearing basses etc will cost considerably more to fix than one that is totally complete.

Some of this is somewhat subjective, depending on what you need the engine to do when it's done - an engine running over a couple of hundred yards on the flat can afford to clank more from the motion than one doing 10 mile round trips with a 1 in 40 bank in the middle.

Related to 5) above - if you decide at least for now, it's a bridge too far to return it to steam, I would suggest loosely reassembling all the big bits, and storing all the little bits in one section of a locked container should be a priority. Someone will thank you for it one day. The world of preservation is littered with examples of engines taken to bits by people with the best of intentions, where expensive and critical bits have subsequently gone missing (not least as over time the people involved move on), and the subsequent return to traffic 20 years later ends up costing half as much again because of all the extra things that have to be made or bought!
Click to expand...

Appreciate the massive insight you've given me! For once I've actually learned something this weekend I intend to at least get it off the ground an on to a couple of sleepers before winter kicks in. We had our first frosty morning today and it'll only get worse! The frame and motion are in relatively good condition considering, tyres don't seem to need any work and the cylinders are in good nick. We pilfered a few parts from it for the restoration of our other Barclay so new brasses and injectors are now needed. I believe a few years ago the thickness was tested, although I don't know the results, it'll be something to ask one of the older members.

Recently we were given the chance to acquire another Barclay from the local area, although no tests on the boiler could be undertaken, visual inspection it seemed to be in very good condition. What stopped us was the public! As it is on display in the local area and kids have access to the footplate they put the stoppers on everything not wanting to lose it. I was spitting feathers! Wouldn't they prefer to see it in steam and actually ride on it instead of leaving it to the mercy of the elements (and children)?!

3155 · Nov 4, 2016

Hi,

After restoring 2 ex Thomas Muirs to working order, a Grant Richie & an Andrew Barclay Fife Flyer, getting the boiler thoroughly examined should be your number 1 priority, on both of the above boilers, there were c 100 broken stays in each, & these were not detected by the age old method of hammer testing, but by ndt test of each stay, something we now do on every boiler repair job. Both locos were ex NCB Fife, & they used threaded bar for the stays instead of the correct way of doing this. If your Barclay is one of the Fife Flyers, they very unusually for 4 coupled Barclays have backhead injectors, which could be very difficult to source?

3155

Steve · Nov 4, 2016

3155 said: ↑

Hi,

After restoring 2 ex Thomas Muirs to working order, a Grant Richie & an Andrew Barclay Fife Flyer, getting the boiler thoroughly examined should be your number 1 priority, on both of the above boilers, there were c 100 broken stays in each, & these were not detected by the age old method of hammer testing, but by ndt test of each stay, something we now do on every boiler repair job. Both locos were ex NCB Fife, & they used threaded bar for the stays instead of the correct way of doing this. If your Barclay is one of the Fife Flyers, they very unusually for 4 coupled Barclays have backhead injectors, which could be very difficult to source?

3155
Click to expand...

Long time since I've been involved with ultrasonic testing and I've never tried doing it on threaded bar but I would have thought that you would struggle to get a back wall echo to prove any continuity of material and every thread would indicate a flaw.
Continuously threaded stays were once quite common, not just with the NCB.

3155 · Nov 4, 2016

Trust me Steve it can be done & has proved very effective.

3155

Steve · Nov 4, 2016

3155 said: ↑

Trust me Steve it can be done & has proved very effective.

3155
Click to expand...

I'm aware that it is done. Technology has moved on but I still have niggles about what the results are. Were those c100 broken stays proved to be broken when you replaced them 'cos that's an awful lot?

3155 · Nov 4, 2016

Sadly, all of the ones shown up as broken by testing, were actually broken, but had not shown up on the traditional hammer testing, it was only when we cut out the outer wrapper that we initially discovered the first previously undetected broken stays, hence the decision to test differently.

3155

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