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Which loco do you think should be built in the future

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by charterplan, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    So how are the Pickering's different financially from any other project being funded by individual donations and bequests and being built away from a railway? A1 was and the G5 is being built away from a railway and being funded similarly to give two examples.
     
  2. flaman

    flaman Well-Known Member

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    You are quite right that Preservation isn't just about locos. You are wrong, however, in saying that replicas are the same as models. A model is merely a 3D picture and, like a picture, has a value as an illustration and a record of something that no longer exists. A 12" to the foot replica is just that- a non-genuine replica. I have watched "Tornado" on the mainline and, yes it looks and sounds like the real Pacifics that I watched on the ECML in the 50s and 60s, but it isn't. That, for me and many others, devalues it.
    I have some experience in the museum sector, as well as railway preservation and my views on this subject are based on that experience. Whether it be a Roman domestic artifact, a piece of railwayana or a locomotive, museum or heritage railway visitors are fascinated by the thought that an item was actually used by people of past generations. I am constantly asked about the history of, particularly, locos and rolling stock and the answers generally arouse real interest. What could I say if asked about the history of a replica? "Well, actually it hasn't got one, it's just pretending to be something!"
     
  3. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps you're the wrong person to ask? I struggle to think of many other steam locomotives that have got the sort of level of national non-specialist press coverage that Tornado has received. The general public seem to have found a certain romance in the struggle to replicate mid-20thC engineering when the supporting infrastructure is largely absent.

    Its an excitement that will be largely confined to the first though: I'm not sure the public will be that excited about the creation of another BR standard tank that looks pretty much like all the others. Rightly or wrongly the big express loco has a great deal of added charisma, and I'd also add that I think the press/PR team behind Tornado have done a bloody magnificent job to maximise the opportunities available to them. And yes, I agree there is a risk that other new build projects will suffer from false optimism, and there's most certainly a risk that effort will be taken away from the vital task of building sheds and emptying headshunts.

    Incidentally I do suspect we underestimate the public when it comes to different locos. Can anyone who's been a Thomas enthusiast in their youth really be ignorant of different classes and types of locomotives, or have trouble telling one from another?
     
  4. m0rris

    m0rris New Member

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    Flaman, I entirely see where you are coming from with the argument about replicas and I think the difference in opinion arises from the varying approaches to preserving steam and might well be intrinsically linked to the age of those concerned.

    I never saw steam "at work", the closest I ever got to the end of steam was a family holiday to South Africa in the 1990s! For me, I want to see steam out there like Tornado is at the moment, I accept that they lack the history of an ex-Barry loco but working steam locos whatever their history fascinate me. The area where I suspect we can definitely both agree, is that once out of ticket, many of these replicas will have lost almost all of their appeal. Unlike say Shannon at Didcot which has a rich colourful and interesting history behind it, an out of ticket new build 47xx will lack the historical appeal and the wow factor of a 47xx in full flight...
     
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  5. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    well, what is better to have? A working full-size model of an extinct class or a photo of it? which demonstrates better what the loco was?
     
  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    But Tornado isn't pretending to be anything. It is real, just as real as a BR built J72 is as compared to an NER built "original." It will also have a history of its own of course.
    The heritage movement is a broad church and encompasses many viewpoints from those who embrace new builds with open arms to those who would rather see a loco restored to non working original condition than consider and change to original spec on order to get it running again. I tend to support new builds, particularly in the case of Rocket and other early locos. How else could we experience the sight and sound of these pioneers?
     
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  7. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    They didn't leech away financial and manpower resources from the "home" railway and were completed to a sensible timescale. Not wildly different from the A.1 and G5 projects. These, of course, don't have a "home" railway though.

    This season's motive power shortages should cause everybody furiously to think about how things are managed.

    PH
     
  8. gios

    gios Member

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    The term 'replica' is probably something of a misnomer, New Build describes the actual situation. Many New Builds are being constructed from original drawings using traditional methods. If the withdrawal of steam had not been so rapid, several of the New Builds would have been constructed under existing Lot Numbers. They are too all intent and purpose, something that would have existed had history not intervened. They are being built like one, look like one and smell like one.............. !

    On the earlier question of labour and money going to Head Shunts. Sorry, but this shows a gross misunderstanding of what motivates individuals and their wallets. You can not force people to commit to something they have little or no interest in. I am a prime example of this - my time and money would simply go somewhere outside the Railway Heritage movement.
     
  9. flaman

    flaman Well-Known Member

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    The same could be said of the replica nameplates which I used as an example, but they are still almost worthless, compared with the genuine article. The trouble with history is that it always intervenes- if it didn't, there would be no need for preservation!
     
  10. gios

    gios Member

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    With all respect, replica nameplates are innate objects. I can get one for a few hundred pounds within a couple of weeks, cheap alloy casting. Repo nameplates have no potential for motion, or even an ability to make one wonder where they might have travelled, nothing to stir human emotion and imagination, no easily detected smell, no sounds and clearly they do not have their own temperament, they therefore fail to excite the majority. New Build steam Loco's on the other hand, will always attract the fascination of the general public - Tornado is an excellent example. Life is more than just the monetary value of an object. Its about how that object affects peoples perceptions.

    Just to finish, do you really think that Tornado's present monetary value is less than any of her sisters, or that in the future she will be anything less than a symbol of something unique and special, which reflects well on our time and with all those involved.

    Sometimes history can be predicted with some certainty ! Replica number plates on the other hand, if they survive early recycling, might also have some value - but history will probably show this will not be the case.
     
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  11. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This thought occurred to me, we all dislike Dr beeching's cuts, but ultimately, if he didn't axe all those branchlines, none of them could have been reopened and operated as steam railways as part of the national network, and steam locmotion would have probably died out forever, instead of being rekindled in the preservation movement. You could say that Dr Beeching saved steam...

    As much as BR standard tanks are concerned, yes they are ideal for heritage operations, but if you had a choice, would you rather go on a railway that has a br std for half an hour at 25 mph, or ride behind tornado for half an hour at 25mph? It may well be cheaper to run stds, but if people go and visit the line with tornado instead, then business is lost and money is lost. think of all the "famous" locos, almost all of them are big four designs; A1, A3, A4, coronation classes, to name a few. I doubt "joe public" could name many std BR locos (perhaps with the exception of black prince).

    as to the minefield of replicas, rebuilds, new builds, restoring locos just our of service, it all depends on how much support they are getting financially. as a result, exciting new builds like tornado got funded well, whilst perhaps a barry std, which would be much better suited to operations, sits just outside a shed with maybe a few volunteers once a week (I very much admire these people for their commitment). at the end of the day, whichever option, at the end we have another locomotive in steam, which is always a good thing. replicas hold a different fascination to those with a history, but I think equally so.

    Alex
     
  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    If a new build is being funded by a dedicated group with finances separate from whichever railway is its home, then it's leeching neither money nor manpower form the "home" railway. It's no different from a Barry job in that case. Whilst 34081 is not a new build, it is being worked on and funded by a group separate from the NVR but most importantly when there is insufficient work for out volunteers they go and do work for our hosts so far from leeching manpower away from NVR, 34081 has actually brought new people to the party. I do find it interesting that yet again a W&LLR project escapes your criticism whereas many others don't.
     
  13. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    A rather flip comment on your part I feel. You mentioned the W&LLR in the first place; I did not. Neither did I mention 34081. The W&L does have two things going for it. Firstly an acute awareness of the cost of everything and where the income comes from. Secondly, like other Welsh n.g. lines and, e.g., the Isle of Wight Steam Railway it owns track, stock and land.

    Now, can we get back to the original purpose of this thread which was a piece of agreeable chat about what we would like to see running in a fantasy world.

    PH
     
  14. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    So if you have no interest whatever in the ex service locos waiting repair what will be your interest in looking after and eventually overhauling the new build in which you are currently involved?

    Or is the attraction just one of being involved in something new and then moving on to the next "new" thing - an attitude which seems to becoming widespread but which really only increases the current problem that we already don't have the resources to look after what we have got without creating yet more!
     
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  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I used the Pickerings as an example because a) I think they are a good example of how new builds can fill a gap in history, b) because I like them a lot and c) with all due respect you have a history of defending W&LLR projects whilst criticising similar projects elsewhere. It was bait and it seems to have worked. I brought 34081 into the discussion to show how a "private" project can enhance a railway rather than be a burden. I've helped out at NVR because 34081 is there. The same can be said of many of my colleagues and also of projects elsewhere.
     
  16. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Whether it proves to be the case remains to be seen, but Tornados looking after for the next 30 years should be considerably less than that of the currently running A4's and probably our much lamented A3 some of which will have to call time, for good. In which case money invested in a newbuild is a better spend that the constant renewal process involved in maintaining an 'Original'

    One spectre that may raise its ugly head is that if there is a serious failure of a heritage locomotive on the mainline due to original fatigued components , the level of testing and certification required will take a serious leap to the point where it will become even more difficult and more expensive to keep these machines out there. the only locomotives likely to pass muster will be 'newbuilds', that doesnt include the ones using ' recycled' bits. VSOE down to 5 Behind an Atlantic or a Standard 3 tank then ? that P2 or Clan or 5AT even, doesnt look so frivolous afterall...
     
  17. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    With "all due respect" you have a habit of bringing 34081 into discussion at every opportunity. It is not a newbuild.

    I am casting my mind back as to the last time I mentioned the W&LLR. Some time ago I think apart from regarding a thread by "Pennysteam" about his video thereof. Hardly defending!

    PH
     
  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Of course I bring 34081 into discussions. I've sweated blood over the thing for nigh on 40 years and whilst not a new build it has similarities in that it has a dedicated team with its own finance, much the same as a new build.
    As for you defending WLLR - you've done it and I'm not the only one to gave mentioned it. The extensions thread was one instance. Anyway, have fun continuing to be Job's comforter.
     
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  19. gios

    gios Member

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    Well, to be very straight forward, my fairly simple ambition concerning the New Build I am involved with is to live long enough to see her in steam !
    At my age that is just another of life's challenges, one over which I have little control. Given some luck, I would be very happy to be involved in her routine maintenance. By the end of her ticket this will probably no longer be possible, although one never knows. So, little chance of "moving onto the next thing". I am not a railway person either as a hobby or by background. I 'bumped' into the project by chance - just undertaking a line walk and getting talking to the members at an early stage of the project. I probably represent the typical background of 50% of our working members - all new volunteer recruits thanks to the project. Your final sentence is a contradiction in terms - what Heritage Railways require in my view is increased revenue, to ensure their long term survival and that of their assets. Not OAPs working on limited time !

    It is rather unfortunate that Nat Pres. appears to attract some rather poorly informed comment. Best not to shoot from the hip at individuals without at least having some knowledge about their background, experience, age, contribution, or circumstances.

    I have little interest in Loco's awaiting repair as there is not the time. I do work for the P-way, so think I probably make more than a little contribution. Anymore and I might as well go back to a more lucrative form of employment.
     
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  20. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Strangely enough, it was my experience of an extension in Mid-Wales donkeys years ago that led me to conclude that extensions by themselves, were not a guarantee of extra net revenue. Not Job's comforter but just realism which all too often is anathema to the starry eyed!

    No-body, apart from those running Tornado and possibly the railmotor can comment about new-builds from experience because nothing else has been finished.

    Now to get back to the original thread. How about a new build of Bouch's "Ginx's baby" 4-4-0 for the Stockton and Darlington. It had a spectacularly unsuccessful design of piston valve which will appeal greatly to "wouldn't it be nice" fraternity.

    PH
     

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