White disks on the front of steam locomotives

Yes Battersea would figure because for many years I believe all the T14s were based at Nine Elms and worked to Salisbury and Bournemouth. The last one was scrapped in 1951. The rather similar looking D15 4-4-0s lasted a bit longer, one of their last duties being on the London-Lymington train. Two of the numerous Edwardian classes I was just too young to see.

 

Back to discs, the loco hauling Sir Winston Churchill's funeral train from Waterloo to Bladon in 1965 carried the discs in a 'V' formation - full marks to whoever thought of that combination - but did that arrangement previously exist, and if so, which route(s) did it cover?

 

It did exist. According to the list I have, it's normal use was on breakdown van trains.

 

By the way, here is the original damaged photo that my wife received. I thought it relevant to post on this thread due to the white discs on the front of the locomotive, which we first thought were caused by damage on the photograph.




Interestingly, in the restored photo, you can identify the disks on the other engine in the background. Can anyone tell what type of engine that may be?



We will look at old photographs of steam engines with a whole new knowledge and interest. Thanks again to you all.

 

It was also used on a Remembrance Day train round Kent in 2012 with 34067

 

The three disk headcode on 444 is acording to one list I have is London to Lymington pier. Headcode meanings did change over the years. the code on the tank engine is Waterloo Plymouth, acording to Ian Allen.The top disk looks like a rotated square which could change the meaning entirely

The tank engine does have the outline of a M7 first introduced 1897 there were 88 built acording to my spotters book. First used on suburban passenger services they became redundant by the 20s to 30s due to electrification. Some went to run branch lines but a number remained at Nine Elms for empty stock moves between Clapham Junction and Waterloo. Two still exist, one at NRM York and the other on the Swonage line

 

Semgonline headcodes webpage does show diamond over disc in the LSWR 1905 lists, but neither case shown is from Waterloo.

 

Understand re the headcode but there is mo station quite like Waterloo in height and sheer presence. The pic also shows the curved feature on the roof line which appears on many images of Waterloo

 

In 1921 three white discs as on 444 would have meant either to Bournemouth West via Sway fromWaterloo
or to Windsor via the "loop line". Given the locomotive, the size of the train, the platform and the
importance of the route I think it was very probably a Bournemouth train.

The headcodes did change and from what I have to hand the lozenge, as on the tank engine bunker,
appears to have gone out of use later and apparently before the grouping in 1923.
Most impressed how the photograph was improved from the state it was in.

 

They were to inform signalmen of the route of that train.

 

I was enlightened over 5 years ago thanks, sometimes checking the date, and the following posts, is helpful before replying!

 

As 444 was built in 1911 the 1911 Appendix is the one to go for. (I have a photocopy courtesy of the Signalling Record Society.)
No. 25, discs at Chimney and either side of smokebox: Waterloo or Nine Elms and Brockenhurst and Bournemouth West, via Sway.
No. 22, diamond at Chimney and disc over drawhook: Waterloo and Roundabout Service, via Kingston. Also, but not directly relevant: Ascot and Woking, via Frimley; Southampton Docks and Salisbury, via Redbridge; Exeter and Padstow.
I made facsimiles of the relevant 1911 and 1921 Appendix entries. (It's easier than ploughing through to page 103. or 130, or whatever. And my 1921 Appendix is a bit fragile.) if anyone is interested, I'll post them up.
Engine carrying No. 22 Head Signal is almost certainly one of Mr. Drummond's M7 class. I think there's a hint of dome-mounted safety-valves, and the other possibility (Mr. Adams's T1) didn't get Drummond boilers inflicted on them until SR days.
Pat

 

The Southerns liking of headcodes lasted into the electric ers. At first letters were used hence the casic add with 5 units lned up showing code H O V I S. Later numbers were used for EMUs. Originally stencils light from behindthrough a white glasss 1950s stock used roller blinds. The use of headcodes lasted to the end of the slam door stock. No longer required by signalmen they were still helpful to passengers for example Charing Cross codes were all even numbers and Cannon St odd

 

This is one of those areas where the more I think of it, the less I think I know. In particular, how as a system it actually worked in practice.

For example, imagine a train heading west, approaching Basingstoke. It is on the down local line and displaying a Waterloo - Exeter code. The Exeter train needs to be on the through line in order to go towards Salisbury, and the last place that can happen is at Worting Junction, just west of Basingstoke, where there are local to through and through to local cross overs - after Worting, the through lines go to Salisbury and the local lines go to Southampton.

So if all the trains are running in the correct sequence, the signalman at Worting knows he needs to cross the Salisbury train over. But if they aren't running in sequence, how does the Worting signalman know which trains are approaching? OK, he could bring them in under caution until he has read the head code, then set the signals and points appropriately - but that is very inefficient. Really he needs to know the destination at the point he accepts the train. So did the Basingstoke West signalman - who has seen the head codes - send different bell signals depending on what the destinations were? In other words, send a different bell code for "is down local clear for Salisbury" (which the Worting man interprets as "I need to cross the train from down local to down through) as a different code to "is down local clear for Southampton"? (which is interpreted as "train stays on down local and passes onto the Southampton line").

In other words, the head codes are one thing but I am wondering how they actually worked in practice as a guide to signalmen?

Tom

 

Didn't busy Southern boxes use Train Describers instead of, or as well as, bell codes? How these worked I don't know but they enabled junction boxes to know which way to send each train long before the bobby could see the headcode discs.

Peter

 

In the Esher accident there is a reference to a 'train describer' so I assume that information was passed along on that. I am not sure when that would have come into use.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Esher1945.pdf p.4

'Signalman Merritt of Hampton Count Junction box said that he asked for Line Clew from Esher for the 7.48 p m . Bournemouth and for the ( first ) Light Engine, Surbiton - Feltham, on through and local lines respectively, at practically the same moment; he got "Line Clear" for both at the same time and pulled off his signals accordingly. Train and Light Engine passed his box at practically the same time, about 8.16 p.m.

Immediately after this Merritt saw on his train describer the 7,57 pm . Electric on the local line and the (second) Light Engine, Waterloo - Guildford, on the through line; he spoke to Signalman Sherlock at Surbiton, reminding him that the 7.57 was booked fast along the through line on Sundays, and said that he (Merritt ) intended to cross the (second) Light Engine (which was at this time running slowly on the through line between Surbiton and Hampton Court junction) to the local line at his own crossover. Sherlock agreed, cancelled the Electric off the local line describer, and redescribed on the through line, setting his crossover, platform line to through, accordingly. Merritt said there was no question of a last minute change of route for any movement beyond his box, and the reports from the various drivers of the signal aspects seen by them conform to what would be expected in the normal working of the movements concerned.'

 

Yes, should have thought of that, we have one at the busy "fag packet junction" at Sheffield Park (to communicate with the Sheffield Park signalman).

Thinking about it, that must be the solution - the signalman at box A (Basingstoke West in my example above) sends a signal for "down local to down through" to box B (Worting junction in my example); gets the acknowledgement, then sends the normal "is line clear?" signal on the down local instrument. Quite a workload.

The Walker's train describer goes back at least to pre-grouping days, so ca. 100 years at least.

There's a description here: https://sremg.org.uk/proto/walkers.html

Tom

 

When you read the accounts of the Esher or Battersea Junction accidents it is amazing that there weren't more accidents with the workload that signalmen had.

So following on from your link to the Train Describer there is a link to the bell codes. https://sremg.org.uk/proto/bells.html

In this it is 'main line' and 'branch' but I assume that for Worting Jnc, it is Exeter and Southampton and so different codes. I am maybe being a bit dopey but how would you know if something is on the slow or the fast?

Perhaps our forum signallers @Robin Moira White or @Forestpines can help?

 

In the Museum at Sheffield Park is a Tyer's Train Describer from, I should think, Swaythling box relating to Down trains. I think everything that St Denys box would need to know is there. As the line goes from double to quadruple after St Denys I would expect a pair of such instruments between St Denys and Northam Jct. After that it's down to the Bobby's wits (as ever).
Pat

 

In the example of Basingstoke to Worting Jn, if the junction direction is speciified by the use of main/branch codes, then the specific codes to be used would be listed in the Signal Box Instructions. Whether the train is offered on the Through/Fast or Local/Slow line, would be specified by the use of separate instruments for each line between each pair of signalboxes.

On a four track main line, there should be an instrument in each 'box for each line. This would mean that 'box B' needs four instruments for the lines between 'box A' and 'box B', and four more instruments for the lines between 'box B' and 'box C'.

In a busy 'box I should imagine that it might get difficult to discern the different notes sounded by each bell.

(When I say four instruments, two of these would be capable of switching "pegging" the needle at the 'box in rear between Normal/Line Clear/Train on Line, these would be used for the lines towards that 'box. The lines away from that 'box would need only an instrument using a similar needle repeating the indication from the 'box in advance.)