WHR General Discussion.

I can't accept the description of the SA Garratts as being non-authentic - the WHR is effectively a new railway and is using the power that is suited to the present day task and does it admirably. I prefer this - a railway meeting the customer's wishes - to an artificial recreation of what existed in the 1930s, and didn't last long because it didn't provide the service that was wanted and for which people would pay.

John

 

I think the WHR is marvellous, wonderful scenery, comfortable stock, friendly staff and Garratts. As a family we rode on the WHR in mid August in pouring rain and the children (15 & 10) thought it was quite an experience winding around the hills.

I don't remember the WHR in the past but I do remember NGG13's and NGG16's in South Africa in the 1970's. So what that they are not working in the contry they were built to work in. They are working very hard and showing people who have never seen them before an example of British engineering design.

Define what is authentic. As we remember something, as it is recorded as sometime in the past or what we see today. It's all a matter on interpretation.

Cheers, Neil

 

I respect your point of view,however this simply does not concur with my experience,having visited the FR many times and having taken dozens of journeys.On my most recent(mid August)seats in the open-sided coaches at the front were at a premium,when there was still some room in the modern coaches further back.Also I find your comment about being "locked into a vintage coach" a bit hard,firstly ALL coach doors on the FR are locked,whatever their vintage,due to the tight clearances.The vast majority of passengers understand this and in my experience FR guards are adept at unlocking doors very quickly at stops.

Also,are you correct in your implication that people don't like the vintage coaches? This has not been my experience from listening and talking to passengers.After all,the FR is widely billed as the oldest railway still operating anywhere and has a locomotive and coach collection of superb variety.I think many passengers appreciate the vintage coaches have a charm of their own(particularly in first class).

 

re the garratts, in the 30's the line was owned by Lt.Col H.Stevens, who was renowned for odging and bodging light railways together from bits of other railways from across the country. the new welsh highland has engines built in belgium used in S.A. and from tazmania, carriages from romania, a diesel from mauritius (the kerr stuart), wagons from south africa and a tamper from france. and thats not including track from several places and the token machines from ireland.

people seem to be miserable because the 'old atmosphere' seems to be missing. this old atmosphere seems to have been made up of rotten carriages and engines dragged in from every corner of the country, hauling a handful of passengers. the new railway has good carriages, engines and other bits dragged in from across the world, hauling trains that are packed to the brim. i think if the colonel saw the new railway, he would be amazed by the garratts, but shocked that the railway was using newly built carriages and building new engines, and would demand why not more of the railway was obtained from elsewhere.

 

No they aren't, the 'tin carrs' are fitted with inward opening doors and these do not get locked.

Don't expect this to be on the WHR all the time and in regular use, it's far to historically important and useless.
I expect it'll spend most of it's time with the other toys, in use at special events.

 

As I understand it, coach party traffic accounts for just 15% of the total passenger numbers on the F&WHR. A very vital 15% nonetheless - especially as the coach party traffic allows the FR to maintain services every week of the year, ensuring it is one of the few attractions in North Wales that opens to the general public throughout the winter.

 

I agree, the modern corridor stock serve a purpose on the FR as they enable the FR to sell food, drink, guides etc on the move however on a reasonably full train they are not particularly comfortable in my view as they are two cramped. Both width ways due to the corridor taking up a fair bit of available space and length ways where I find the tables irritating. Accordingly as a family we always try and avoid and use older non corridor stock unless we upgrade.

However it is a personal choice and I am sure many may feel to the contrary

 

The fact that they are displayed and that they carry the approval of the chairman of the WHHR!

 

Agreed. I was staggered when I read that timetable poster in the picture. Talk about airing your dirty washing in public - goodness knows what Joe and his family make of it all.

 

Hopefully not a lot as I doubt very many if any of Joe Public read the timetable at Pen y Mount. The poster looks fairly weathered so presumably it has been up for a whilst and is possibly a one off as I presume if they were plastered elsewhere they would have been picked up and commented on before now.

I just wish what ever the rights and wrongs both parties would stop squabbling as in reality apart from letting off a bit of steam it is not going to change anything. As an outsider it would be nice if they could kiss and make up as it could see trains running into Portmadoc earlier and also Russell out and about on occasions when it is complete.

They should also realise that to an extent they are both competing at present for different markets. I as a narrow gauge or steam train enthusiast might well part with my money to ride on the FR as a repeat visitor which is not likly to be the case with the WHHR due to its short length.

However for a family with young kids in tow and not a great deal of interest in railways the WHHR might be the preference as it is considerably cheaper, only takes an hour and keeps the kidies with short attention spans amused.

If that appears like rubbish it was the attitude of my family last week. To kill a bit of time on a damp day we were going to catch the FR from Tan y Bwlch to Portmadoc, go to Tescos and then return. Due to slow service we missed the train so drove in and went to the WHHR where we had never been before and just in time to catch 6069 go past. My wife initially expressed her surprise at the length of the trip but at the end both her and the kids said they would do it in preference to the FR as they liked pressing the buttons in the new museum etc rather than just sitting on a train.

I have to admit I did not necessarily agree but I have to admit that if the kids are happy and quiet rather than continuingly asking how long before we get there then so am I.

 

With the long delay now apparent for getting into Porthmadog Harbour, probably not until 2012, the WHR trains could possibly be diverted for the time being to run over the WHHR - this would at least connect with the Cambrian Coast line quite handily so that people could again travel from Porthmadog to Caernarfon. It would need an improvement in relations between Festiniog and WHHR though, but looks like a win-win solution.

 

Im afraid it is anything but win-win. There are many problems, but the biggest is that the full WHR will need a third carriage set; running that out of Tremadog Road means less people travelling through Harbour station, so effecting the shop and Spooners whose income is extremely important, while potentially causing confusion when WHR trains do start to run out of Harbour.

It also means that the WHHR would need to upgrade their track, extend the loop and platform at their terminus, and accommodate and service the loco and carriages including the facility to empty the on-board toilet. The cost and inconvenience to both railways, perhaps for just one season, almost certainly rules it out.

Chris

 

I appreciate that it is not going to happen but the original time table for this year was that a the Caernarvon trains would in the main terminate at Beddgelert with a shuttle running from Port to Beddgelert. It does not solve all you say but covers loco servicing etc.

I do actually have a simple and straight forward possible theoretical solution although it would be extremely contoversial!

 

Go on then, he said with some trepidation...

 

People keep forgetting that even to get to Tremadog road still requires the signaling of 2 level crossings at pont croesor for which there is no money, unless temporary gates like tan-y-grisiau had in the early days could be installed. People seem desperate for it to open to Port but most of the line including the open phases is not up to standard. This weeks weekly notice shows 8 TSRs on the WHR, this excludes a lot of the Rhyd ddu - hafod-y-llyn section which currently requires a separate map!

Personally i think it would be better to do the volunteer and time intensive task of getting the open section up to scratch then when money is available to open to Port the journey won't be so mind numbingly long.

There's no coaches to carry the extra people anyway and the FR can't spare any.

Tim

P.S. Just as a comparison the FR has 1 5mph TSR affecting down trains leaving Tan-y-bwlch which probably wouldn't be doing more than 5mph anyway.

 

Please, can we not go back down that road again? Extending to Porthmadog will happen when trains can run into Harbour station, not because of politics or because the alternatives are 'controversial' but because it makes the most sense practically and financially. Those are, by far, the two most important factors involved.

Indeed, what this season has proved beyond [most people's] doubts is that the current length of line is operating very sucessfully -as much as i and others want to see the whole line open, compromising at least one, and possibly several seasons income when there is no need to do so would be unwise.

Chris

 

I hope you had a good sub-editor ;-)

 

Been lovely and quiet since his enforced absence, hasn't it?

 

I have written my reply but I have held it back for the present as requested.

With regard to your reply I agree that financially and practically it make sense to the FR not to run to Port unless it is to Harbour, and I actually think it actually presently makes no sense to rush to run to Port. To do so will be costly completing the infrastructure, signalling, widening the cob, having a third set of rolling stock etc. etc and at that point passengers can stand on the platform at Port and actively choose which way they travel. The X million dollar question is would overall income leap substantially above what it is now if the FR incurred the costs and opened to Port.

There is an element of politics involved though as I am sure if there was only one organisation who grabbed all the income and profit and not the WHR and the WHHR some trains would now be running to what is currently the WHHR terminus with plans to possibly run more the following season.