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WW2 locomotive building.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Eightpot, May 26, 2017.

  1. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    Despite being ordered in 1938, and no doubt with much material to hand, by 1940 Bulleid and the Southern Railway were being castigated by the wartime Ministries of Labour and Transport over what became the 'Merchant Navy' class. The Ministries took the view that they were 'de luxe express passenger locomotives', however the SR claimed that in view of the wartime situation that they would be regarded as 'mixed traffic' ones. In view of the fact that many LNER V2 2-6-2s, also with 6' - 2" driving and coupled wheels were built, it would appear that the 'mixed traffic' description won out in the end.

    However, bearing in mind the Ministries views of 1940 how did the LMS manage to build in 1943/4 no less than 8 'Duchesses', an obvious 'express passenger' type, with no less than 4 of them with the streamlined casing?

    Anyone know?
     
  2. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Its hardly the only example of the LMS people being better at politicking than staff from the other companies. In view of the nature of the LMS one suspects the staff had gained much experience earlier on in their careers.

    More seriously I imagine they demonstrated a need for big powerful passenger locomotives to shift the vast numbers of people required to move for military purposes.
     
  3. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Perhaps someone in the Ministry of Supply thought "bathtub" was a secret code name like "tank" had been in the First World War?

    :)
     
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  4. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    By late 1943 the future course of the war may have seemed more positive and planning towards a gradual return to normality may have been becoming more common? (An example being the Brabazon Committee that was formed in late 1942 to plan the future of Commonwealth Civil air travel).
     
  5. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Can we extend this slightly, to ask were the WD 2-8-0 AND 2-10-0 really needed? , at the time LMS 8f were being made by any if not all of the main railway workshops, so why design a simplfied 8f, if you were already building the LMS design of engine? could exsisting designs have been built instead of any of the war time designs for instance a jinty rather than a J94, more 8f locos instead of the two WD classes, for instance would a tank version of an Q1 been a better dock loco?
     
  6. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    The LMS 8F was considered by Riddles to be too sophisticated in materials and labour time. The WD version was cheaper to build. The 2-10-0 wasn't needed in Britain. It was the same power as the 2-8-0 but with a lower axleload in anticipation of being used in locations with poor track. However, back in Britain, it did have some advantage in putting down more adhesive weight on its lesser axleload.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  7. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    Maybe WDs were better locomotives.
    Turkey was donated some 8Fs and Greece some WDs.
    Who did get most use?
     
  8. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Does anybody have any detail of allocations in the Middle East for the 0-4-0 Diesels that were sent out?

    Trying to find out more about our number 16.
    Built by Drewry Car Company at Burton on Trent in 1941 for the WD as number 37 0f a batch of 20 (29-48)

    Electrical equipment and the exhaust system were flameproofed for use in munitions factories and fuel dumps.
    Worked in The UK until 1943 then shipped out to the Middle East and renumbered MEF 44 and later 70037, working mainly around Suez.
    Returned to the UK in 1947 to Kings Norton WD Depot near Derby from where it was sold in Feb 1948 to Shell Mex / BP Trafford Park becoming number 12.
    1950 transferred to Jarrow renumbered 16, where it worked until 1964.
    Then for repair at Bagueley then to BP Saltend near Hull until 1984 when it was donated to the York Are Group for use on the NYMR.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It was originally intended to build Jinties as a standard WD loco. However, Hunslet persuaded the MOS that a modified version of their 50550 locos would be cheaper and simpler to build and be more suited to the intended duties. One of their big advantages was the ability to negotiate much sharper curves than the Jinty.
     
  10. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    You can try telling that to the crews who worked them! WDs steamed and pulled well enough, although the brake wasn't as good as an 8F's, but if you tried doing anything clever, like going above 25 mph, you were in for a VERY rough ride.

    WDs were used on the ex-L&YR lines and 8Fs on Midland and, slightly less so, LNWR. Lees (LNWR) was a sub-shed of Newton Heath (L&YR) and no love was lost between the two, so Lees always got the WDs and anything else Newton Heath didn't want. So imagine their surprise when one day two 8Fs appeared. This was apparently a clerical error and unnoticed by Newton Heath. Lees made absolutely certain that the 8Fs never went anywhere near the parent depot, and managed to hang on to them for some time. Eventually, Newton Heath discovered the error and the 8Fs were transferred, replaced by two WD 2-8-0s.
     
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  11. Courier

    Courier New Member

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    Holcroft stated ("Life with Locos") that it was the employees in Eastleigh Works who objected to the locomotives being built in wartime- not the Ministry. The idea that they were mixed traffic as they had 6' 2" wheels was the ruse used to convince the workers that the locomotives would support the war effort.
     
  12. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    'Before El Alemanin we hadn't won a battle, after that we didn't lose one' you have a point Martin, why send 6229 back from the states until 'the happy time' was over?
     
  13. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    WDs were knowingly constructed with no reciprocatory balance to b able to run on war- torn track without damaging it further.
    It would have been a small step to rebalance for 8F or even 9F level in peacetime.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  14. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    It was done on one; John Powell wrote about it in Railway World, and the men would certainly have approved its continuation. It didn't happen, so the locos, unlike the 8Fs, remained limited to slow speed, unfitted goods.

    They were never intended to be used long term, and Riddles himself said that, after the war, he would be happy if they were all pushed into the sea. He would have had plenty of volunteers to assist.

    We are dealing with what was, not what might have been. The were rough and crude, and while rebalancing would have made them comfortable at somewhat higher speeds, we don't know what other issues would have emerged as a result.

    The WDs were not a better engine than the 8Fs and were not designed to be so. They were a short-term fix for an immediate problem, and in those circumstances it would be very unlikely that they would be batter. They did the job for which they were intended, so all credit there, but the 8Fs could do a lot more.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  15. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    It is a shame none the less that WDs were not used in peacetime alongside 8Fs/9Fs .
    It could have given a statistic showing if the lovely english Belpaire,conical etc boillers were worth the trouble or a dead end.
     
  16. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    I think you are confused as BR had 733 of these 2-8-0 engines on their books numbered 90000 to 90732. and 25 2-10-0 numbered 90750 to 90774 and the latter cases mostly worked in Scotland. Yes non of these BR owned ones were preserved.
     
  17. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    The WDs seemed to congregate at L&Y sheds, Bury which was another sub shed of Newton Heath had an allocation of them too, but never any 8Fs. The 2-8-0s replaced the Austin 7s, maybe the Midland got priority on 8Fs as they had nothing bigger than Derby 4s?
     
  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Lanky general got the mucky end of the stick. First it was the Austin 7s, generally considered to be because the shorter runs with more frequent stops were more compatible with their axleboxes. When the war ended and WDs became available in large numbers, about half the Austin 7s were withdrawn, and the WDs replaced them. 8Fs were mostly on the Midland, right from introduction, but again post war availability allowed a large number to go to the Western division. They arrived in any numbers on the Lanky only in the 1960s, though.
     
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  19. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    Presumably on the ex LNWR, they were replacing the Super Ds. One of the last sheds with Austin 7s was Agecroft, although unlike the other Manchester area Lanky sheds they did have some Black 5s
     
  20. D1039

    D1039 Well-Known Member

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    Planning for the 'People's Peace' is an interesting area, and one I was studying academically until this month. 1942 also brought the government Plan for Coal'. As early as 1942 it was identified that there was a need for 4 million houses which must be built more quickly than after WW1. Cripps' draft Declaration on the Constitution of India was that year too. Without getting too heavy on the contentious arguments of continuity, change, 'war and social change' theories, post-war concensus and the like, 1942 seems to have been a pivotal time of change.

    Patrick
     
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