York Yuletide Express - 12 Dec

We are told that the overwhekming majority of passengers on these tours are Joe Public, whilst enthusiasts understand problems and are generally forgiving, the public are less so. Hanging around at Liverpool Lime St Station, on a chilly December morning for 3 hours, will hardly make the public want to repeat the experience, especiallyfor those with children. With VAT rising on 1st Jan, and general financial belt tightening, the public may well rein in leisure spending and think twice about risking a repeat scenario.

 

I would say to the last part that if the passengers are aware that the tour is 3 hours late departing that they speak to the stewards who were visible to those waiting at Lime St that they are not prepared to travel due to having little time in York/worried about the return time they should have informed the staff that they wanted to travel at a later date and give their seat number/booking ref to the staff. A credit could then reasonably be demanded for a tour in the future by writing to/phoning RTC.

Those who decided to commit at such a late time I don't see they would get another trip at a later date as compensation, they took the decision to travel as I did. I do not expect RTC to offer me a free trip in the future as compensation and will not be asking for it.

Neil.

 

Whatever you say RTC did not deliver the product people paid for and at the very least they have a Moral and I suspect if a claim went to small claims court they would discover a legal liability as well. Remember they are not a TOC and the Unfair Contract (terms) act would likely come into play. RTC are in fact a Travel Operator in the eyes of the law and should be covered by insurances and bonds as such by law!

Dobbin has got away with far too much for far too long. Contrast the general way RTC treat their passengers if anything goes wrong with Steam Dreams. That is why I stopped travelling with RTC several years ago,

 

Would it be cynical of me to suspect that you would have been doing a large amount in provoking and steering that heated debate?

 

Actually I found it an interesting spectator sport for a change - there was nothing I needed to add. Rather I was quite defensive of RTC as we have had some really good tours in the past.

 

I don't think (unless there is something earlier on) there is an answer to the perfectly reasonable question possed a few posts back as to why the stock and both lcoos were stabled at Crewe in the first place. This was the first question to occur to me when hearing of the unfortunate turn of events,

Steven

 

I am a bit amazed there was no locomotives available at Crewe ?

How the railway network has changed since privatisation.

Was it down to everything being air braked ? or just different / reluctant other operators at offering a locomotive to assist ?

or genuinely an empty shed at Crewe with nothing serviceable ?

 

I understand the reason was that the line between Wigan and Liverpool via st Helens Central was in the possession of NR for maintenance. The original plan was to drag everything down from Carnforth in the morning. As that was not possible, it was brought down the previous night and held at Crewe. Shame really as a failed 47 could have been switched at Carnforth. Good point on previous post as to why edge Hill was not used.

 

A lot of people are complaining about the this tour running, and running late...

by contrast 44932 had a major failure in the south east on it's ECS move, and had to limp to Three Bridges from Redhill (circa 9 miles) I understand at walking pace, with no alternative but the cancel the tour, there was no diesel on the back.. probably the closest locomotive was probably 35028 warming up for it's VSOE turn.

two failures with less than a few hours before the tour starts..... two different outcomes...

By view of quantity of posts on the forum... 31 posts versus 89..

It would suggest people would prefer the tour to be canceled and go home, than to run late / assisted ?

Certainly there's more venting off about the tour actually running... than the other tour which ultimately couldnt.

 

I understand the points you are making but sadly we are (as you appreciate) not in BR days were locomotives and staff were easily to hand to subsitute accordingly. Although Crewe still has locomotives in the area, not any locomotive will do as one is required that could provide ETH (Electric Train Heat), so that precludes numerous loco's immediately. Currently, only Class 47, 57/3, 67's and a small handful of Class 37's that may fit that bill. Even if one may seem to be available, unfortunately being early Sunday morning - it would not be easy to get staff in where ever at that time of day and at short notice. Even if they could, no one could "instantly" get in - it would still take time for them to arrive and get on with the business in hand. As for reluctant other operators in helping out - I would suggest quite the opposite, The Virgin "Thunderbird" loco is always on standby duty with driver to hand in case of emergency at Edge Hill and Virgin were prepared to let it go and assist - I think that is co-operation at its best . Finally it has now't to do with the stock either as it operates with any air braked locomotive.

 

So involved, this steam trip business !! On first learning 3 hrs to get ECS to the start, you immediately think.... WHAT ???? But then consider all the issues which have been highlighted above. (Thanks for all the input) Not a good few days for steam; and now it looks on another stream that Tornado has returned today very late (coal issues?? ) Now I'm not a lover of the phrase 'we must learn from problems' They are ALL DIFFERENT !!!!

 

:tape2:

If I comment, like I did about the refusal to cancel the Friday Lincoln excursion last week, the man who maintains that diesel might call me those nasty names again - what were they - oh! err - gay, hypocrite, free loader etc - and I'm afraid - so afraid eep:

 

Originally Posted by dp266
.....In fact as the day wore on this became quite a heated debate in our coach. The majority said they felt cheated and would not do a winter tour again.....

Funny that Steve, I was thinking the same.

I'm surprised dp266 that you even stayed on this tour as you would have known when the update was made that it would be 44871 and the diesel would stay on the back. I presume that with all the crowing you've made over the last few months that you would have transferred to another tour in the spring/summer?

 

You can take as many shots at me as you like... It does not change the fact that the tour failed to deliver on the promise and I witnessed the train manager facing a barage of abuse from disgruntled passengers - mainly women it must be said. At one point BTP were called in.

I had long since come to terms with the fact that there would be a box on the back and just put it down to experience and a bad purchasing decision - I can afford to take that hit. Would have been nice to get the full breakfast and miss the lunch though.

As I have said previously, I will avoid winter tours. It seems that after Sunday, so will many more if they take a chance again.

 

On the question of whether there were locos available at Crewe, of course the Riviera 47s were on the former DMD, but they've been barred from Class 1 work AFAIK.

 

How about Colas Rail ? Did they have anything available ?

 

I wasn't there, so my comments should be taken as speculation not definitive.

I imagine that if this had been designed and offered as a diesel-hauled tour to York Christmas Market, and had departed the same 3+ hours late, the criticism and the flak faced by the train staff would have been pretty much the same. It was a Mr and Mrs Joe Public tour with an attractive destination, and it didn't really deliver on that, so they would indeed be unhappy. Because it did run, with big problems, it is naturally more interesting to this forum than the one with 44932 that didn't run. Should they have done the decent thing and cancelled, or run it but offered the choice of not getting on and getting your money back? Yes of course they should. But they have a business to run and kids to feed, and a set of T's and C's that meant they didn't have to do any of that. So they didn't.

Like dp266 said, avoid winter tours if you want not to take the risk. Oh, and summer ones too, because of the lineside fire / box on the back risk. Better avoid the autumn leaf-fall ones as well........ now, er, what's on in May????

 

Colas - would have come down to the ability to provide ETH, if in the area. Wouldn't be surprised if their 47s had had it isolated. And there might have been a safety case issue as well.

Pity there wasn't a 57 at Crewe - there used to be one in the siding where 47 500 was dumped - but that is probably due to cutting back on the number of relief locos.

 

First off, apologies for the somewhat snide/aggressive nature of my earlier post. Feel much better after a decent night’s sleep in a real bed and a shower!

Royals Pete, I was part of the support crew (and chief tea boy during the 3 hour wait at Crewe!) Driver was Albert Seymour and fireman was Chris Birmingham.

I can’t really comment on what RTC will do or the right’s and wrong’s on whether it should have gone ahead or not. I just know that once it was decided that the tour would still go ahead the credit and thanks that anything happened must really go to Network Rail and WCRC’s train planning teams, both for finding us an extra diesel so some sort of tour could happen, and for getting us a path back early the next morning.

The people I feel the most sorry for are the stewards who would have had to take the flack for something entirely out of their control.